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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Korgoth" data-source="post: 3378468" data-attributes="member: 49613">This thread is for discussion of situations in D&D that challenge the players.  Riddles, ciphers, mechanisms, tricks, traps and situations which require the rigorous application of Logic and Natural Science are all included!  I want to hear about the sorts of problems my fellow DMs have set before their players, as well as insights into the principles and methods of Player Puzzling.I have to start it off with the best one I ever heard, perpetrated by an anonymous DM (an engineer) on his play group (fellow engineers):-- The party must recover a great treasure from a sunken ship.  But they have no water breathing magic (and you can't just run out and buy some... this is from the Good Old Days) and when the ship went down, she went down deep.  Solution: The players, using only medieval materials as their resources, must design viable diving gear.  When the players have finalized their plans (consulting among themselves and drawing on their engineering knowledge), these plans are presented to the DM who evaluates them (perhaps under consultation) and assigns a secret failure percentage to the equipment (in inverse proportion to the thoroughness and viability of the design).  The expedition to the ship is then played out.  I am told that the party was successful, though I seem to recall that there may have been a fatality.That's my favorite example of Player Puzzling ever.  But I also use it as an occasion to put forward several principles of Player Puzzling which I think are worthy of your consideration:(1) "Know your audience."  You give the Medieval SCUBA Problem to people who actually have some knowledge of engineering.  Children and non-scientists are unqualified even to attempt it.  Likewise, if your Sengoku Jidai period game requires that, to placate a sentimental daimyo, the PCs have to compose an authentic Heian period poem... you're going to want to make sure that your players actually know Japanese (they don't have to be poets, though... they can read up on that aspect).In short, your audience doesn't have to start out knowing how to solve the problem, but they do have to start out knowing where and how to begin solving it.(2) "Put down that twenty-sider!"  The Player Puzzler's Guild does not countenance the solution of a cipher by rolling a Cryptology check, nor the solution of riddles with an Int check, nor the glad-handing of touchy NPC despots with a Diplomacy check +2 for having the Obsequious feat.The style of play advocated here is that which challenges the players.  Die rolling is for things that cannot be done at the table: swordsmanship and leaping over fissures.  Any form of thinking, talking or problem-solving is done by the players themselves.(3) "They're not mind-readers."  Anybody can come up with "What have I got in my pockets?" and call it a riddle, but it's not a good one.  Likewise, anybody can come up with a convoluted situation the only solution of which depends on a set of obscure and arbitrary operations.  That's not a puzzle... that's torture.(4) "Don't go easy on them."  On the other hand, while the puzzle should not be arbitrary and inscrutable, it should not be easy, either.  If you play softball you're just robbing the players of their potential glory in overcoming a truly difficult and worthy challenge.  If you give them a cipher, make sure it's a tough one, not just a simple reversal of the alphabet.  A puzzle is something that demands the time and attention of the players.  The DM, if he would be a true Player Puzzler, must provide the players with a challenge that is worth the expenditure of their time and efforts.....I recognize that this style of play isn't for everyone.  I'm not starting this thread to have a pointless argument about it.  What I want to hear about are your most insidious and brain-breaking challenges!  And whether the players overcame them, or if they allowed their characters to pay the price for their cognitive underachievements.   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /></blockquote>

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