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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5207397" data-attributes="member: 42582">Celebrim, leaving aside different preferences in play style, plus questions that are hard to answer in the abstract in relation to what seem to be quite different RPGing experiences (eg is standard AD&D play well-suited to producing thematically powerful play - you think yes, I think no), the passages above seem to me to capture our main point of disagreement.It doesn't seem very helpful just to reiterate, and what I'm about to say isn't intended as mere reiteration, but if it doesn't strike you as actually elaborating the point I apologise.I think there is a huge difference between scene framing with metagame cooperation or at least mutual understanding between GM and players, and the use of force to override the action resolution mechanics. The latter almost by definition vitiates player choices by undermining the mechanical framework within which those choices are made. This is the classic "disregard the dice rolls if they would lead to unfun", and my reply is "play a system where this won't happen". Lanefan consistently posts from a perspective which captures the fun in AD&D played without disregard to the dice. I'm not sure I want to play in his games, but the AD&D 2nd ed "solution" for getting more dramatic play is a nonsense one. It's about overriding the action resolution mechanics, and about vitiating the players' thematic choices.In your reply to Hussar, you compared GM scene framing to "rebooting the game". I think that this is right. Leave aside for the moment whether one is happy with such reboots as elements of a campaign, and just focus on player choice/freedom. Do such reboots vitiate player freedom? Well, they won't vitiate player thematic focus/preference provided that the players' chosen themes inform the new scene. Some "hard nar" games achieve this mechanically. In a more traditional game this is a matter of GM/player negotiaton. If you're not interested in that - what I called upthread the "metagame in" - then that's fine, but I think that it is a viable way of playing. Sometimes it's just a version of skipping over the boring stuff when shopping in a market, but with bigger time and space gaps. The capture or ship scenarios are different - the scene framing is a bit harder - but there's no necessary reason why it should be at odds with the player/GM understanding of things.The other main aspect of player freedom, besides thematic choices, is meaningful deployment of the action resolution mechanics. This is where I think system matters - to go back to your example of bottles on door handles and alarm spells, this is an example of action resolution mechanics which (i) allow the action-resolution-mechanical state at the end of one scene affect the action-resolution-mechanical state at the start of another scene, and (ii) assume that that effect is to be played out in real time in the same sequence as it would unfold in game time. If a game has those sorts of mechanics, it is harder for the GM to frame scenes without being unfair to the player, by vitiating their action-resolution-mechanical choices. Even in such games I think workarounds of variours sorts are possible - frank metagame discussion being the main one - but not all games have action resolution mechanics with properties (i) and/or (ii). 4e, for example, is designed to have a lot less of (i). And systems which allow the GM to override the players precautios in return for granting them plot/fate points in the new scene are designed to have a lot less of (ii). In these sorts of games, GM scene framing needn't vitiate players' action-resolution-mechanical choices.This is why I think (a) that there is a big difference between what I'm talking about, and 2nd ed AD&D, and (b) that system matters to these things. I also think (I'm not 100% sure) that it's an implication of your position that Forge-style narrativist play isn't possible using traditional RPGs. I don't agree with that. Neither does the Forge. Provided that some care is taken in the sorts of ways I'm talking about - in particular with handling the implications of action-resolution mechanics from scene to scene - I think vanilla narrativism is eminently possible with an otherwise pretty traditional approach.</blockquote>

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