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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 5471447" data-attributes="member: 27160">Interesting topic.I echo the question as to whether the combat/diplomacy option question is one of challenge/non-challenge (I think both represent challenges, and the decision which to try will be based on character focus and perceived difficulty), but I do think there are alternatives to challenge as a main focus of play.By way of warning for those adamantly opposed to anything emanating from The Forge, despite seeing its flaws and (to an extent) understanding your aversion, I do think that the crew there identified a lot of useful points about RPG play.  What we are talking about here as "challenge based play" I identify mainly as "gamist"/"step on up" play in The Forge terminology.I have also experienced extensively "simulationist" or "the right to dream" play.  This consists of playing in a well developed world with a plausible and preferably deep character with the enjoymeny coming mainly from exploring that character and that world.  What does it 'feel' like?  If you are really "in the zone", you should be able to taste the world, and feel the character's skin around your own!There is also the "play bricks" construction focus.  All the players take a hand in building the world; all feel free to add neat stuff to characters (regardless of "ownership" - see Universalis for a system where this is taken to the ultimate degree and taking control of a character is just something you can do to help build the story).Finally, there is "story now".  I find this hard, but some folk really grok it.  You basically build characters to propose or oppose some "theme" - and then tweak their theme buttons until a story is generated.I also have seen, a couple of times, story generated successfully when characters are built with a "dramatic need" - and their way to meeting it has been constructively blocked.  I am rather unclear if this is the same as or similar to the "theme" thing, but with some care over the aesthetics it can work.As to how to encourage these styles of play, I have some pointers, and The Forge has some good stuff hidden on it, too, but it's an imprecise art...First off, you need to get rid of the drivers to "challenge" play.  This means mainly "experience" and "character improvement" systems.  Character change mechanics are OK, but not systems whereby characters can be built up into combat/persuasion megaloths that can "rule" any "contest" scenario.World/character based play needs a well defined setting, and the rules of the game have to be the rules of that setting; if the game rules in use clash with the imagined world, get new rules, don't change the world.  Consequences are important, too.  In HârnMaster it is quite possible to win a fight and die of your wounds later, so fighting is something to enter into cautiously, even if you are sure you can win.  And the world must "work" - internal consistency is critical.Story based play mainly need players who are committed to driving it.  Some things still help, though, with the game system.  Conflict resolution that focusses on player-defined goals, rather than assumed or set win/lose criteria help.  Character description/generation systems that focus on the character's (intended) place in the plot, rather than physical abilities or skills and equipment help.  Systems to look at would be HeroQuest (the new one, previously Hero Wars), Primetime Adventures and (for a fun bit of variety) InSpectres.  3:16 is also an interesting approach, with a specific theme (or themes?) in mind.If this stuff interests you, The Forge archives are really worth sifting through - though you will need to kiss a lot of frogs to get a prince, there...  but the princes do exist! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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