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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5473317" data-attributes="member: 42582">Interesting observation.I think the sort of narrativism you get with 4e is fairly vanilla (but not as vanilla as narrativist Rolemaster, I can tell you!). The non-GM players mostly make their input at the character build stage (and the flexible retraining is part of this). Of any edition of D&amp;D, 4e has the highest number of player-accessible game elements that, simply through being built into a PC, bring thematic content with them (Eladrin and the Feywild, Warlock pacts, Tiefling heritage, a lot of the PPs/EDs, etc).One way I look at 4e is that it's a little like HeroWars/Quest except, instead of leaving it to the players to think up and build relationships into their PCs, WotC have decided to make money by selling a lot of discrete little &quot;relationship components&quot; to their market.I think 4e can be played ignoring all this - or putting the GM in charge of deciding what it all means - but I think that would be (i) to ignore the tenor of the advice about the world in the PHB and DMG, and (ii) to run the risk of making it a degenerate high-concept dice rolling exercise.Another interesting observation.Good stuff.With challenge/&quot;step on up&quot; in 4e, I see some other issues - like the way combat is designed to make the players work for their win, but to come close to guaranteeing that win in a wide range of cases, and the change in Essentials to award XP even for failed skill challenges. Also treasure parcels, which tend to mean that treasure isn't a real reward. Do you agree that there are issues here, or am I misperceiving the situation?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5473317, member: 42582"] Interesting observation. I think the sort of narrativism you get with 4e is fairly vanilla (but not as vanilla as narrativist Rolemaster, I can tell you!). The non-GM players mostly make their input at the character build stage (and the flexible retraining is part of this). Of any edition of D&D, 4e has the highest number of player-accessible game elements that, simply through being built into a PC, bring thematic content with them (Eladrin and the Feywild, Warlock pacts, Tiefling heritage, a lot of the PPs/EDs, etc). One way I look at 4e is that it's a little like HeroWars/Quest except, instead of leaving it to the players to think up and build relationships into their PCs, WotC have decided to make money by selling a lot of discrete little "relationship components" to their market. I think 4e can be played ignoring all this - or putting the GM in charge of deciding what it all means - but I think that would be (i) to ignore the tenor of the advice about the world in the PHB and DMG, and (ii) to run the risk of making it a degenerate high-concept dice rolling exercise. Another interesting observation. Good stuff. With challenge/"step on up" in 4e, I see some other issues - like the way combat is designed to make the players work for their win, but to come close to guaranteeing that win in a wide range of cases, and the change in Essentials to award XP even for failed skill challenges. Also treasure parcels, which tend to mean that treasure isn't a real reward. Do you agree that there are issues here, or am I misperceiving the situation? [/QUOTE]

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