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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7279958" data-attributes="member: 6880599">I see your point here I just don't entirely agree with it. While your right about the room the GM doesn't just make the room he determines if its lethal and puts up signs and reasons for them to go into the room. If the players go into the room because the GM created it as part of a "path" had them role perception for a random lever with no other information. Its like the big red button. Chances are some one is going to pull it an kill them all. If that happens, the GM defiantly lead them to that by not providing enough information.  I have to admit. I did not think you would think of a time when players killed themselves but player vs player (intentional or not) would indeed be out of the GMs hands. In the case of player vs player the GM would not be developing or coordinating the game only interfering with player decisions. So bravo to you sir, I do have to consed that not all deaths are GM controlled. I will still say many and perhaps most are the result of GM decisions. I thing not recognizing that GMs control most of the game and even largely guide player characters means that any failure to gauge there strength or failure provide them with enough information for them to act with the correct level of caution does fall under the GM. ... Still in the vain of letting players make there own decisions if a character wants to walk off a cliff or into a room filled with gas I can see why you would see that as interfering instead of coordinating play. My point of view is that many players see a room filled with poison gas and thing "This must be here to protect something I better check it out". Too many GMs make a story with a trap that kills you instantly and no warning that you are in a dungeon where that is thing and just start mercilessly killing off players then blaming it on them for bad roles. That is not fun and a game killer.  ... I kind of imagine players in your games saying "and I check for traps" at the end of every sentence. Where in my game, I put NPCs with the group who red shirt into the room or signs or something that says, "warning if you fall from this height you go splat, also there is a gas leak in the janitors closet around the corner and stupid leaver that locks the door, we should avoid that room until we get it fixed." Having provided that if they walked into the room and pulled the leaver or jumped off the cliff ... I as the GM would absolutely kill them, except blame for it, then follow that with "but I did give you fair warning". The big difference in our thinking it that I require a warning of some kind but also that if they all die like that its my fault for putting in a room like that and somehow leading them to believe their was some reason to go in there and pull the handle. You don't seem to put up signs, blame them for being curious cats, and then expect them to learn by living in fear. At least from my point of view. We don't use that term and honestly its always the GM that says a player is an "over powered" "min/maxer" "rules layer" which is odd because its not always the guy doing the most damage it usually the guy doing something that defeats the GMs planed story in my experience any way. Which is why I feel like it a misconception that power players are the problem and made this post.I do talk character builds and I am some times considered a nuisance but not for the reasons you would expect. I think backwards from most people apparently so the GM said pic a direction everyone else yells right and I say lets go strait, everyone looks at me funny and say what? I am pretty sure we can knock that wall down and get to the center of the maze... they stare at me a little more and we go right. I like building character a lot, and I like them weird and unexpected but capable enough not to hold the group back. That however does not define my play nearly as much as my backward way of thinking and my traditionally bad roles on everything.</blockquote>

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