Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7285142" data-attributes="member: 6880599">... So are not so good with word thingys.... er.. Yep.So for some reason when I say the same thing and use the words "GM railroading" this is a thing and everyone knows what I am talking about. Part of the reason my posts are so long is for some reason I did not think of that term until a few post ago.. I don't know.. my mind is a weird thing. Makes me wordy. But there is another reason....I was also trying to illustrate that the GM can railroad players in to broad ways.1. Directly where the GM gives them one choice that doesn't really matter: "you are in a admatine room,  no air holes, you see a magic rune on the roof that denotes an anti magic room, there is nothing in the room except a leaver. what do you do?" <players pull the lever>  "the room is electrocuted you are all roasted from the inside out no saves, no death saves since your all on metal and can't escape the effect and its continual so you instantly have 3 failed back to back death saves."2. Indirect where the GM thinks he is giving the player a choice but the Players don't actually have one or don't believe that have one: "you wake up on a cold metal floor, the walls are stone  and bear except a single copper door, what do you do?" <players check for traps> gm says you feel a strange energy on the door an as you approach you feel the hair on your arms stand up. Players rightly guess --- copper door, electricity, metal floor-- Players talk about it and decide to stand on their packs and attempt for one of the players pull the door open with a rope. The player roles to attempt, fails, everyone is electrocuted for half damage since they are on their packs, player tries again and succeeds but still completes the circuit and they are all electrocuted a second time and fall unconscious. The GM roles to see if the rope has burned away or is still completing the circuit roll if 10 or less, it is... players immediately fail 2 death saves, GM roles again DC5 or less since the robe is burning away, it still is.. all players are dead.In 2 the GM may believe that he gave the players a chance since their planning gave them 2 attempts, depending on the group this could be an easy challenge.  The GM may believe that if anyone of them had taken mage hand, telekinesis, or some other spell that let them touch it with magic instead of completing the circuit or teleport out, they could have used that and been fine (which a quick look at there character sheets would reveal they had not). Also, he required a single player to make a dex check to lasso a handle DC 15 and a constitution check DC 15 to pull the handle open but again a quick check of the players sheets would reveal that all his players had used ether dex or con as their dump stats melee taking strength instead of dex and casters dumping dex for constitution for better concentration rolls. This means that they not only had 2 chances to fail but one of them being at a negative. As a result the GM made the world put the players in a room with a life and death challenge made as part of the world with no respect to any players then proceeded to watch them "kill themselves". If the characters had a player with a spell to resolve the issue its and easy problem so the GM might say "it was the players choose to not pick those spells" and "the players choice to not have any dex and constitution player characters" "he just made a trap making if for them would be like cheating". In this case I still say the GM killed the players because they had no choice about entering the room, they just woke up there and the trap was unintentionally designed in such a way that it was very unlikely for these players to survive, there was no real player agency just luck. It's a false choice because the GM can say "you could have tried another way" but It might be they didn't have any other gear that would help. If the GM had looked through there gear, spells, and character stats and found a way out... sure. Then its players over site, if the GM does not it is possible for him to accidentally railroad players to their death. Then if he says "what you can do anything you want, you just did the wrong thing" it falls short of the truth because no they can't. They can only do what the GM lets them do. GM's give agency to players. If a GM world builds independent of his players with no knowledge of there characters skill, spells, and abilities he will make challenges he intends to be hard that they will walk through effortlessly (where a lot of threads about D&D 5e being on easy mode come from I think) and he will indirectly remove player agency and railroad them from time to time until he kills them. Giving players forewarning and ensuring that they have free agency to actually detriment their fate is important in any RPG. When you start pushing players along as a group and railroading them directly or indirectly. At that point your no longer playing together, the GM is just telling a story until the players characters die. If a single player loses free agency that is fine because the group can still continue there story to save them... or not and that player can make make a new character... because free agency... but players are still controlling their story. That's Why I keep saying killing a player or 2 is ok... but a TPK is usually a really good sign of railroading by the GM, unless the GM gave free agency and foreshadowing up to the TPK and that was the fate they chose.  ... That is my opinion, anyway. I am sure some people will attack the scenario and not the point am aiming at. I am not good at abstract scenario examples and I usually try to forget the "bad" gaming moments so while I remember character deaths, I can't usually recall all the details on top of not being able to respond to my GMs side of those events so they would be incomplete at best.Mostly I just want to warn GMs to watch themselves first when "calling CRs too low", "The game is on easy mode", "balance is all off because of the players are power-gaming min/maxers" or the other side of the same coin... "I make my worlds brutal so my players know death is real but I don't make it for them I just make it and is what it is. its really on them if they die", "I don't change my fights when a player doesn't make a session or if they rolled it as a random encounter, its on the players to deal with what ever comes at them", "My challenges are hard in fact I don't know if if any of my players could even meet the DCs with a 20 unless I allow critical success on skill tests, but hay its just the world we agreed to as a group. If this DC is just a little higher than the traps they beat last session with a 19 that is just the way it is" Usually, the problems you get from this kind of play can be at least mitigated with some awareness of the actual player characters instead of just their levels for the CR tables and difficulty tables. The more I have played as GM and a player at the same time the more I see GMs saying these things and realize a lot of hate for "balance" from both sides is because the GM just don't want to take the time to look at their player characters and build for them to make it harder with the same CR battles and/or ensure they are not telling a story by themselves instead of playing a game together. Putting a trap in front of your players that they lack the skill to even possibly meat or exceed in order to even detect it is not "independent world building" it is railroading players and story telling how a player(s) died to a trap. Again ... That is my opinion, anyway.... sorry for the wall of words... I try to keep it short but fail oh so horribly ...</blockquote>

Verification