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<blockquote data-quote="SMHWorlds" data-source="post: 7718953" data-attributes="member: 6853809"><p>Just a few thoughts... </p><p></p><p><strong>Narrative Control</strong></p><p></p><p>This is an interesting concept that I am not sure is well understood. Heck I won't claim I have it nailed down entirely. But to the point of this particular conversation, I feel that players always have a degree of narrative control, both over their characters and over the world at large. All of this regardless of mechanics. Now it may be shallow and narrow - "You are going to Dungeon X and open every door starting on the right, because mazes." At least you can determine how or if you fight the denizens of the dungeon and other albeit limited choices. Your choices may be broad and deep - "This is your home village of Witch/Devil/Knight - Bridge/Wood/River, and to the east is Dungeon X, to the north the caves of the Kraken drinking Squid god...". This gives you a wide range of things to do. However the world works though, what you do is logically governed by player knowledge, not character knowledge.</p><p></p><p>Levels, Hit Dice (old school) or CR (new school) determine more often than not if you as a player will take on an encounter. As does story structure and game expectation. You do not go take on the boss until you soften up minions both for in game tactical reasons, but also hero's journey reasons. All of those pesky rules inform player decisions, not character decisions. We all hear about the crazy 1st level barbarian who punched Vecna, but that almost never happens because however dumb the character, the player steps in and <em>authors </em>a reason for the 1st level character not to do that.</p><p></p><p><strong>Random Chance</strong></p><p></p><p>Do you know what the percentage of wounding or killing blows are on a typical sword fight? How about bullet fired to bullet hit on a modern battle field or police incident? I do not know either (some folks may), but even the most professional of professionals hit less than half the time? Baseball players who are average get a hit 25 out of 100 times; the great one 30 to 45 times out of 100? The point is, in an attempt to take into account random factors and skill, we roll dice. d6 to d20 (or d100), this random act judges our success or failure. It has nothing to do with character choice other than is he or she using their optimal skill in the optimal way, though even that may be a player choice as opposed to a character one. Random chance can be cruel however, and does not always reflect the actual skill of the character. In the end, the dice are just part of the negotiation between Man (Woman) and Nature (GM, World, Tiamat, etc..) over whether a particular action succeeds or fails.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Fate Points, Luck Points, Karma, and Authoring</strong></p><p></p><p>So this extra currency, fate or luck or karma, can come into play for times when the dice negotiation may or may not resemble an internally consistent world logic. The player can say "hold on, this is an important role, I want to spend some currency" to change or improve the results of the negotiation. It is not handing author level of control to the player (not necessarily so, in some games it does), but is only continuing the extremely long line of author and player decisions that lead the character to this point. These points simply remove a level of randomness from the game. That's it. </p><p></p><p>Role playing games are a negotiated social contract, authored by all involved, not just the GM. Players make authorial decisions all the time "I don't feel like dungeons today." After the GM made a dungeon for you to play in, today. Like you asked previously. You are changing the narrative in a (forgive me) meta kind of way. So to point to Fate or Luck and say "Wo! I don't want to affect the outcome like that" seems odd to me, since every decision we make as players has consequence of ensuring our tactical success going forward. The Advantage / Disadvantage system in 5e does the same thing. Increases or decreases a chance of success. Where fate and luck may be different than say skill choice or getting a +1 sword, is that typically come in post-roll.</p><p></p><p>In the end, if you do not like a system hen don't play it, don't buy it, don't support it in any way. Voting with our wallets is always the most effective way of handling our likes and dislikes. </p><p></p><p>Also, dunno if this is where people draw some of their stance discussion from, but it is what I am familiar with (whether I agree or disagree with it notwithstanding) and likely a useful read in any case.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/4/" target="_blank">http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/4/</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SMHWorlds, post: 7718953, member: 6853809"] Just a few thoughts... [B]Narrative Control[/B] This is an interesting concept that I am not sure is well understood. Heck I won't claim I have it nailed down entirely. But to the point of this particular conversation, I feel that players always have a degree of narrative control, both over their characters and over the world at large. All of this regardless of mechanics. Now it may be shallow and narrow - "You are going to Dungeon X and open every door starting on the right, because mazes." At least you can determine how or if you fight the denizens of the dungeon and other albeit limited choices. Your choices may be broad and deep - "This is your home village of Witch/Devil/Knight - Bridge/Wood/River, and to the east is Dungeon X, to the north the caves of the Kraken drinking Squid god...". This gives you a wide range of things to do. However the world works though, what you do is logically governed by player knowledge, not character knowledge. Levels, Hit Dice (old school) or CR (new school) determine more often than not if you as a player will take on an encounter. As does story structure and game expectation. You do not go take on the boss until you soften up minions both for in game tactical reasons, but also hero's journey reasons. All of those pesky rules inform player decisions, not character decisions. We all hear about the crazy 1st level barbarian who punched Vecna, but that almost never happens because however dumb the character, the player steps in and [I]authors [/I]a reason for the 1st level character not to do that. [B]Random Chance[/B] Do you know what the percentage of wounding or killing blows are on a typical sword fight? How about bullet fired to bullet hit on a modern battle field or police incident? I do not know either (some folks may), but even the most professional of professionals hit less than half the time? Baseball players who are average get a hit 25 out of 100 times; the great one 30 to 45 times out of 100? The point is, in an attempt to take into account random factors and skill, we roll dice. d6 to d20 (or d100), this random act judges our success or failure. It has nothing to do with character choice other than is he or she using their optimal skill in the optimal way, though even that may be a player choice as opposed to a character one. Random chance can be cruel however, and does not always reflect the actual skill of the character. In the end, the dice are just part of the negotiation between Man (Woman) and Nature (GM, World, Tiamat, etc..) over whether a particular action succeeds or fails. [B] Fate Points, Luck Points, Karma, and Authoring[/B] So this extra currency, fate or luck or karma, can come into play for times when the dice negotiation may or may not resemble an internally consistent world logic. The player can say "hold on, this is an important role, I want to spend some currency" to change or improve the results of the negotiation. It is not handing author level of control to the player (not necessarily so, in some games it does), but is only continuing the extremely long line of author and player decisions that lead the character to this point. These points simply remove a level of randomness from the game. That's it. Role playing games are a negotiated social contract, authored by all involved, not just the GM. Players make authorial decisions all the time "I don't feel like dungeons today." After the GM made a dungeon for you to play in, today. Like you asked previously. You are changing the narrative in a (forgive me) meta kind of way. So to point to Fate or Luck and say "Wo! I don't want to affect the outcome like that" seems odd to me, since every decision we make as players has consequence of ensuring our tactical success going forward. The Advantage / Disadvantage system in 5e does the same thing. Increases or decreases a chance of success. Where fate and luck may be different than say skill choice or getting a +1 sword, is that typically come in post-roll. In the end, if you do not like a system hen don't play it, don't buy it, don't support it in any way. Voting with our wallets is always the most effective way of handling our likes and dislikes. Also, dunno if this is where people draw some of their stance discussion from, but it is what I am familiar with (whether I agree or disagree with it notwithstanding) and likely a useful read in any case. [url]http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/4/[/url] [/QUOTE]
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