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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7719012" data-attributes="member: 5142">Sometimes, conversations need 'refresh' buttons. When people can just take time to remind themselves (and each other) that they are humans talking with humans. It's incredible how time changes the norms and preferences, despite the 'common' hobby of tabletop roleplaying. I will address some of my own RP experiences and understanding of the philosophy behind Fate, while also (hopefully) addressing some of your own experiences and philosophies that you address here. You sound like an 'actor' when it comes to RP. You immerse yourself as fully as possible to roleplaying your character as your character. Pemerton and I have discussed, here and there in this thread, about how this pertains to the (dis)connection between player and character knowledge and the behaviors that impacts, so I will refrain from talking about that again. Anyway, I find that it is impressive that you attempt to immerse yourself so heavily into your character. It's something that not everyone can do. But my tables, particularly the group that I have now, has had sour experiences with an actor (player and GM) with "RP immersion purity," though this happened before I met my current close friends. Usually when my fiance and her best friend complain about approaches to RP that have left them sour, this guy's name comes up a lot. They thought he was brilliant at what he did, but they deeply resented him for telling them how they should play their characters. My fiance's best friend is effectively in traumatic recovery mode from this, and so my fiance and I have been trying to build up her RP confidence again. But the two of them can roleplay, and roleplay well, according to their in-character motivations. And part of the problem has been the GM's differing sense of their characters in relation to the world. Social things happen, and a romantic break-up between this GM and another non-player mutual friend caused the GM to depart. This, again, happened before I knew them. What does this have to do with Fate, roleplaying, or immersion? My players tend to be "high concept" players. Their character concepts always come before the mechanics. They know who they want to roleplay rather than the mechanics they want to rollplay. Fate works exceptionally well in giving them this as part of its core 'mechanics' via aspects. It allows them to define their character concept at the outset instead of looking for which cookie-cutter fits closest, and even then, class levels in some systems can impair their sense of achieving their character concept. So on that end, Fate works better than many others for us. It lets them jump into their character much easier and quicker. There is a defined sense of character rather than the player thinking "once I reach level X, then I will get abilty Y that I envisioned for my character." Though we are all enjoying playing a campaign of 5E together under another GM, a number of these players have also expressed that they see D&D as too transparently stuck in its wargaming roots, which makes certain mechanics feel far too gamist for their tastes. But what about the Fate points and immersion? My sense for the underlying philosophy of Fate and its points (and this may be giving the creators too much credit) is also what I suspect is one of the reasons why my players seem to like Fate. And it kinda goes back to that dick-GM. Fate (points) operates via social contract gaming with a system of built-in checks and balances between the players and GM: fate points. Player's can exercise some control over the narrative and game world, including potential checks that the GM places on their characters, while the GM can provide checks on how a player's own character concept or roleplaying thereof. For example, if someone were to define their character by writing "Scared of Water" as their character's trouble, but then never roleplay their character as being scared of water, what would you think of the player or their roleplaying? That player may resent the GM for "telling you how to roleplay your character" - that oft-flaunted criticism of compels - but if they're ignoring a self-professed chunk of their character concept, then I do think the GM should have a say in that. (Generally in D&D, GMs really only have this sort of mechanical power over clerics via their deities having a check on their power.) So I do agree that fate points are narrativist and gamist to an extent - as I tend to see most RP mechanics aas gamist (even if couched from the perspective of characters: e.g. a monk's ki, wizard's spell slots, barbarian rages, etc.) but I also don't think that narrativism and immersive-roleplaying are mutually exclusive. And this may be, to some measure, part of the contention between our differing sense of preferred game philosophy. I have seen some of the most memorable roleplaying in these moments that you perhaps see as immersion-breakers. For example, one player had a trouble to the effect of 'uncouth ruffian,' which I then compelled in an important social situation. The player, without skipping a beat or slipping out of character, slid a fate point across the table to reject my offer. She then proceeded to 'rise above' her usual social inclinations and inhibitions to not only maintain her composure, but also to turn the situation to her advantage. In-game, this was incredible to watch. Her spending that fate point to reject the complication alerted me to how important this moment was for her. As a GM, it's a sign, as I could have caused a similar narrative problem without this player's consent or not. ("The NPC reacts this way to your character," being a common way GMs have wrestled narrative control or in-game ageny away from players.) But her spending this fate point, also forced her to consider her character and who she was. It provided her with an opportunity for her to define her character in this narrative moment. You may regard fate points (and Fate mechanics) as redundant or unnecessary for recreating such moments. Fate is obviously not the sole roleplaying game out there, and there is not a One True Way for these things. Nevertheless, I appreciate how it achieves that. I appreciate that social contract gaming experience, especially when it brings some of the best roleplaying experiences out of my players. And I do think that for my players, fate points provide a means of engaging me, the GM, without having to necessarily leave their in-character perspective.</blockquote>

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