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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7719140" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>For the sake of conversational flow, I hope you don't mind me moving a few things around. </p><p>Okay, I sometimes see D&D as too (war)gamist-oriented and Hero as too rules/crunch-heavy for roleplaying, but clearly you have not let that stop you from roleplaying them</p><p></p><p>You have explained yourself better, and I think that I have a better understanding of your point, but I still disagree with how this interferes with roleplaying, and I still feel that you are being unfairly hypocritical of Fate. </p><p></p><p>Fate points are not incongruent with what you describe above. None of it. You are still playing your character in Fate: nothing or nobody but you, even with GM compels. You still react to the situation as you choose. You still feel the scene as you choose. You still roleplay your character as you choose. You still make choices based on his background, approach, and how they are feeling that day. The GM telling you that someone enters the scene wanting your shield does not contradict any of the above (i.e., an event-compel), nor have you demonstrated how that would be the case. Your "roleplayer agency" remains entirely in-tact without any loss of integrity. </p><p></p><p>I don't think that adding a mechanical bennie to it is fundamentally different than XP rewards, the most longstanding, traditional mechanical bennie in the game, along with the entire concept of "leveling-up." Congratulations, you roleplayed well, here's some bonus XP. Congratulations, you killed those monsters, here's some XP. A lot of XP in D&D, however, is back-ended on defeating monsters, which puts the bennie incentives on certain actions or ways to play your character. (Murder Hobo = more efficient XP generation.) Characters in 5E D&D can now even be rewarded Inspiration for roleplaying according to their background. Again, I understand if you play differently, but I can only compare with RAW here and not your idiosyncratic game experiences, which I am not privvy to. Should you also complain about getting XP for killing monsters or resolving encounters when you would do that anyway? "Wah! Why is XP making me play my character? I was going to do this anyway, but the game keeps giving me stuff for doing it." You may not need these bennies to play IN character, but it's like any other artificial bennie in the game. </p><p></p><p>I have given some thought with how Fate differs from other systems in regards to these mechanical bennies, because pretending they don't exist in other systems (or tied to roleplaying) would be disingenuous. In contrast to many other games, Fate front-ends these bennies. The bennie is not given after your character has dealt with the complication (e.g. resolving the encounter, defeating the monster, etc.), but, rather, when your character decides to deal with the complication. It's not about your character achieving but about your character choosing. So from this perspective, this is why I find the idea that this is "close" to cheating or counter-productive to roleplaying to be utterly baffling to me. Because the latter seems more conducive to immersive roleplaying, as it places emphasis on character choice over character deed. </p><p></p><p>In short, fate points (and how they are used in Fate) are in no way incongruent with the bold. If you are not roleplaying for XP or leveling-up, then you should not worry yourself about roleplaying for fate points. It's simply a mechanical consequence of roleplaying. Just have fun. Immerse yourself in your character. Good roleplayers don't let the mechanics stand in their way. </p><p></p><p>I disagree with your analogy here as well, and I think it's worth unpacking it a bit more in-depth. </p><p></p><p>In this analogy, you feel that you gain nothing new from this course, as this class is "unnecessarily" rewarding you for your prior knowledge, thereby generating a sense of ethical unease? (Shall we ignore the prevalence of this problem in real world courses? This is to say that students will have varying pre-existing knowledge of the subject matter coming into the course and that said knowledge provides the person with some inherent advantage in the course.) </p><p></p><p>So what is the nature of this class? Is it a Fate class or a roleplaying class? If it's the former, are you also enrolled in language classes for D&D and Hero? What do you get out of those classes? Are they also teaching you how to roleplay? Are those classes teaching you anything new? And if you are choosing to play D&D and Hero - and you already know how to roleplay flawlessly - doesn't that make you a different sort of "just taking it for the Easy A" student? </p><p></p><p>Roleplaying isn't a foreign language nor would you learn it as you would a foreign language. At the most basic level for any foreign language, you are learning grammar (and vocabulary). The grammar for any language is an imperfect, artificial, descriptive system. You are learning how to communicate within the system of the language's own rules. Every language system has its own norms and conventions. Learning a foreign language is more equivalent to learning a roleplaying system than it is to learning roleplaying. (The aforementioned descriptive quality of grammar does make the generally prescriptive nature of game rules an imperfect analogy, but it's more compatable than the prior analogy.) </p><p></p><p>You already know how to "communicate" (i.e. roleplay) in D&D and Hero, so you don't have to think about how to construct a sentence or converse. You know how to structure your thoughts and communicate within the contexts of a D&D or Hero conversation. You already know their grammatical rules or were natively reared in the language as your mothertongue. You are already fluent in the primary form of the language, and likely in the various regional/local dialects. You have alluded to this idea several times in this thread already. You already have systems/languages that work for your conversational purposes. You don't have to think about "conversing" in these "languages" because the aforementioned familiarity and you don't need other "languages" because you already have found "languages" that let you "converse." </p><p></p><p>If you were in a Fate class, then they are not teaching you how to roleplay - hopefully you don't need any course for that - but, instead, they are teaching you the conventions and norms of roleplaying within the particular <em>parole</em> of Fate's language. So it appears that you mistakenly believe that your "Fate 'foreign language' class" is simply a more general "roleplaying class." </p><p></p><p>So from my end of things, and do I apologize if this comes across too harshly or condescending as that is not my intent, but the analogy makes you sound less like a student fluent in Arabic taking an Arabic course for the Easy A, but more like the French-fluent student in an Arabic foreign language class complaining in French that they gain nothing out of the Arabic course because they already know how to hold a conversation in French: "Je ne génère rien en apprenant l'arabe, parce que je sais déjà comment converser." That student may know the basics of holding a conversation as a general concept, and they may insist that you know some grammar and vocabulary of the language, but the contention arises when their inability to hold a conversation in Arabic comes with with the judgment that a flaw exists in the Arabic language that prevents them from holding a fluent conversation in Arabic. Naturally, a native Arabic speaker (or anyone fluent enough in Arabic) would find that student's attitude problematic, if not condescending. Obviously not all languages come as easily to people as others. But if you want to converse in foreign language, then you practice, and best practiced through immersion in the language, which is a value I'm sure you would see as an immersive roleplayer.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7719140, member: 5142"] For the sake of conversational flow, I hope you don't mind me moving a few things around. Okay, I sometimes see D&D as too (war)gamist-oriented and Hero as too rules/crunch-heavy for roleplaying, but clearly you have not let that stop you from roleplaying them You have explained yourself better, and I think that I have a better understanding of your point, but I still disagree with how this interferes with roleplaying, and I still feel that you are being unfairly hypocritical of Fate. Fate points are not incongruent with what you describe above. None of it. You are still playing your character in Fate: nothing or nobody but you, even with GM compels. You still react to the situation as you choose. You still feel the scene as you choose. You still roleplay your character as you choose. You still make choices based on his background, approach, and how they are feeling that day. The GM telling you that someone enters the scene wanting your shield does not contradict any of the above (i.e., an event-compel), nor have you demonstrated how that would be the case. Your "roleplayer agency" remains entirely in-tact without any loss of integrity. I don't think that adding a mechanical bennie to it is fundamentally different than XP rewards, the most longstanding, traditional mechanical bennie in the game, along with the entire concept of "leveling-up." Congratulations, you roleplayed well, here's some bonus XP. Congratulations, you killed those monsters, here's some XP. A lot of XP in D&D, however, is back-ended on defeating monsters, which puts the bennie incentives on certain actions or ways to play your character. (Murder Hobo = more efficient XP generation.) Characters in 5E D&D can now even be rewarded Inspiration for roleplaying according to their background. Again, I understand if you play differently, but I can only compare with RAW here and not your idiosyncratic game experiences, which I am not privvy to. Should you also complain about getting XP for killing monsters or resolving encounters when you would do that anyway? "Wah! Why is XP making me play my character? I was going to do this anyway, but the game keeps giving me stuff for doing it." You may not need these bennies to play IN character, but it's like any other artificial bennie in the game. I have given some thought with how Fate differs from other systems in regards to these mechanical bennies, because pretending they don't exist in other systems (or tied to roleplaying) would be disingenuous. In contrast to many other games, Fate front-ends these bennies. The bennie is not given after your character has dealt with the complication (e.g. resolving the encounter, defeating the monster, etc.), but, rather, when your character decides to deal with the complication. It's not about your character achieving but about your character choosing. So from this perspective, this is why I find the idea that this is "close" to cheating or counter-productive to roleplaying to be utterly baffling to me. Because the latter seems more conducive to immersive roleplaying, as it places emphasis on character choice over character deed. In short, fate points (and how they are used in Fate) are in no way incongruent with the bold. If you are not roleplaying for XP or leveling-up, then you should not worry yourself about roleplaying for fate points. It's simply a mechanical consequence of roleplaying. Just have fun. Immerse yourself in your character. Good roleplayers don't let the mechanics stand in their way. I disagree with your analogy here as well, and I think it's worth unpacking it a bit more in-depth. In this analogy, you feel that you gain nothing new from this course, as this class is "unnecessarily" rewarding you for your prior knowledge, thereby generating a sense of ethical unease? (Shall we ignore the prevalence of this problem in real world courses? This is to say that students will have varying pre-existing knowledge of the subject matter coming into the course and that said knowledge provides the person with some inherent advantage in the course.) So what is the nature of this class? Is it a Fate class or a roleplaying class? If it's the former, are you also enrolled in language classes for D&D and Hero? What do you get out of those classes? Are they also teaching you how to roleplay? Are those classes teaching you anything new? And if you are choosing to play D&D and Hero - and you already know how to roleplay flawlessly - doesn't that make you a different sort of "just taking it for the Easy A" student? Roleplaying isn't a foreign language nor would you learn it as you would a foreign language. At the most basic level for any foreign language, you are learning grammar (and vocabulary). The grammar for any language is an imperfect, artificial, descriptive system. You are learning how to communicate within the system of the language's own rules. Every language system has its own norms and conventions. Learning a foreign language is more equivalent to learning a roleplaying system than it is to learning roleplaying. (The aforementioned descriptive quality of grammar does make the generally prescriptive nature of game rules an imperfect analogy, but it's more compatable than the prior analogy.) You already know how to "communicate" (i.e. roleplay) in D&D and Hero, so you don't have to think about how to construct a sentence or converse. You know how to structure your thoughts and communicate within the contexts of a D&D or Hero conversation. You already know their grammatical rules or were natively reared in the language as your mothertongue. You are already fluent in the primary form of the language, and likely in the various regional/local dialects. You have alluded to this idea several times in this thread already. You already have systems/languages that work for your conversational purposes. You don't have to think about "conversing" in these "languages" because the aforementioned familiarity and you don't need other "languages" because you already have found "languages" that let you "converse." If you were in a Fate class, then they are not teaching you how to roleplay - hopefully you don't need any course for that - but, instead, they are teaching you the conventions and norms of roleplaying within the particular [I]parole[/I] of Fate's language. So it appears that you mistakenly believe that your "Fate 'foreign language' class" is simply a more general "roleplaying class." So from my end of things, and do I apologize if this comes across too harshly or condescending as that is not my intent, but the analogy makes you sound less like a student fluent in Arabic taking an Arabic course for the Easy A, but more like the French-fluent student in an Arabic foreign language class complaining in French that they gain nothing out of the Arabic course because they already know how to hold a conversation in French: "Je ne génère rien en apprenant l'arabe, parce que je sais déjà comment converser." That student may know the basics of holding a conversation as a general concept, and they may insist that you know some grammar and vocabulary of the language, but the contention arises when their inability to hold a conversation in Arabic comes with with the judgment that a flaw exists in the Arabic language that prevents them from holding a fluent conversation in Arabic. Naturally, a native Arabic speaker (or anyone fluent enough in Arabic) would find that student's attitude problematic, if not condescending. Obviously not all languages come as easily to people as others. But if you want to converse in foreign language, then you practice, and best practiced through immersion in the language, which is a value I'm sure you would see as an immersive roleplayer. [/QUOTE]
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