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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ragmon" data-source="post: 6181607" data-attributes="member: 99604">Read all the post for this topic, there all sort of right but completely missing the heart of the issue, at least as I see it (yea I'll give you the answers that no one gave you here, yea ill be that arrogant).Gonna go step by step:I - Powerful characters and magic - You chose to DM a low-magic campaign, and yet you allowed people to play 2 spellcasters (I don't know if their full casters) and a Cleric (as per the <a href="http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0" target="_blank">Tier system</a>, unofficial). I actually don't blame the guy. Math wise he chose to create to compensate for his major set back in a world where he is dependent on magic items to keep up with the powerful magic users (as per numbers and all that).- Now, if you checked out the link I provided the rogue and swashbuckler are  nowhere near tier 1, that is for a reason. That tier system is correct in my opinion, and it has been written by some "professional" power gamers.- Next lets look at some facts, if that player wont be the "most powerful" player in the game then some one else will, and the blame and complains shift targets, and it will.II - The rogue and feats - I wont talk about the swashbuckler its a rather "meh" class, imo. - The rogue in my opinion is strong, not because of SA, but because of skills, there is nothing more deadlier then a  player with a plan and the right skills at the right time. - The SA is nothing, literally inconsequential to the game, great he can deal nice amount of dmg here and there. BUT can he hit the target? High armor and natural armor is a bitch to rogues. Most of the creatures in D&D have Immunity to SA. There is an armor enhancement called Fortification even the helps against SA so now even the NPCs can have immunity to SA not just monsters.- Low HP, low AC, low fortitude and will save. Do you see the pattern? No? Let me explain, spells dear EN-world patron , spells, rogues are <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> against anything other then reflex save spells. Low HP, you deal some dmg and he will scamper away or even worse, die. Simply put rogues are prone to die easily cause there easy to kill.- The feats are nice, Craven is acceptable, he has a trade-off with the -2 vs fear and the bonus DMG is only usable with a SA, fair IMO.- The other feat, forgot its name what ever, is nothing special, he had to multi-class, he had to waste a feat, and he got a fair trade for his troubles, some numbers that don't help him too much.Magic Missile, enough said good against everyone, well almost everyone.III - Race - Playing the same race, lesser thiefling, oh come on just use dismissal or banish or what ever and show him that being an outsider has a major drawback, especially when you are a mere mortal compared to devils, demons, rakshashas, elemental, and so on.- Fire elf thiefling or what ever, if he were power-gaming then he would be playing a Whisper Gnome (no LA and <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> ton of bonuses).IV - Generally the player - As I see it, the guy likes numbers, he likes a certain type of character, nothing wrong with that, that is what the guy likes (seen it first hand, a friend of mine created the exact same character every time for years, and he was having fun, tho it annoyed us to no end).- Be glad that this player is not aware of "true-legal-power-gaming", if he would be power-gaming he would create a Wizard, Cleric or Druid, nothing more powerful then these classes, and these are core, you don't even need splat-books to make them godlike.V - The DM, (you in this case) and campaigns - Lets talk about the other half of the problem, the DM (you).- If you allow something and it comes back and bites you in the ass, that is your fault. Be it class, race, feat, splat-book or dragon magazine, its all on you if you allow it. I'm not saying you have to read all the books, but at least read about the players characters "build" (class, race, feats) so you can weigh his character, will it fit my campaign will it be too powerful against what I planed to use against them? You allowed it, you were being sloppy in this regard, "why are you being so mean?" you ask, cause its your fault, you are aware of the fact that that player likes to "power-game" and you didn't even bother to check the math and character build, sloppy sloppy sloppy.- Another thing, you are the one in control, if you are afraid of the SA dmg then just place the players into situations/against creatures that are immune to SA, its that easy. But make it seem like your slowly shifting towards SA immunity, cause the player will smell you fear and might accuse you of it, so throw a none-SA immune creature in front of him now and then.VI - My honest opinion - As I see it your campaigns are mostly combat oriented, "why do you say this?", well cause if you guys would be story and role-play oriented this guy would have already left the group. (I'm in a similar group but noone leaves, cause we are the only group the plays RPGs in the city basically, so the "number gamer" is bored every time when me and the "crazy" player start role-playing and doing stuff that does not involve combat, sometimes not even skills, the "number gamer" is bored so the DM slowly nudges us towards combat so that noone is bored). - I would say do an experiment, do a few role-playing session, minimal combat or none at all, and see how that player reacts, just for fun (maybe even PM the results).IN CONCLUSION:- Rogues are weak, the character he made is weak (as per numbers), the hidden danger lie within the 2 casters and cleric. - Don't allow anything that you are not  prepared for and check you players characters before you give the "OK".Remember this:There is no such thing as a "powerful" character while the DM is around.</blockquote>

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