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D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The problem I've having with 4e.
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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4100566" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>Sure, of course it can be. Is it as INTERESTING as playing a wizard, cleric, druid, etc? Not in most cases. Has almost everyone in my group enjoyed playing a Warblade way more than a fighter? Yep.</p><p></p><p>Well, this is where you lose me a bit. HP have never made sense. We've always just glossed over the problems with them because we didn't want to keep track of conditions or roll on a random table to see if enemies hit me in the arm so I was -2 to hit with that arm. We didn't want to deal with the hassle of having to stop and rest for two weeks because the fighter broke his leg.</p><p></p><p>I can't think of any form of hitpoints that make sense in all cases and are still fun. Feel free to explain one to me, but no edition of D&D has had HP that make sense.</p><p></p><p>You can...but it never worked. In 2e there was no way to reliably predict the power level of PCs because you had no idea if the players had bracers of ac 0 at 3rd level or not. DMs didn't know what was an appropriate level for a +4 sword other than guessing. So guesses varied dramatically.</p><p></p><p>Even in 3e where they tried to fix this by assigning gp values to all the items and then giving wealth by level guidelines most DMs ignored them and gave out way too powerful items. Even when they gave out appropriate gp, players would stack items in one area rather than spread them around. So if a player could get 4 items that all added to AC, he'd do it and get a nearly unhittable AC.</p><p></p><p>Sure, it's possible to just say "Players shouldn't be given rings before they reach 11th level." But then you have the players who insist on finding people who have rings and steal them or to commission a wizard to create one for them when they are 5th level, spending all their money on it. </p><p></p><p>Haven't seen it yet. Ran a number of games at DDXP and none of the groups wanted to rest early. All of them looked at their number of healing surges remaining and said "we have enough to survive more battles and we can win battles with just our at will and encounter powers, let's keep going." This is in sharp contrast to my experience running 3e where the prevailing opinion is "Spells that are of levels below your second highest are almost not worth casting. When you are an 11th level cleric and are reduced to only 1st-4th level spells, you should rest as you won't survive another encounter."</p><p></p><p>That's not really true. I found that some people's dailies were area of effects and they wouldn't be used until the enemies bunched up or the encounter was deemed "the hard one". The per encounter powers were mostly used when tactically appropriate rather than immediately at the beginning of every encounter. When your at will attack does 1d8+4 and your encounter power does 1d8+4 and one pushes an enemy back and the other knocks him prone there really isn't a "best" option. Sometimes it worked the other way around, where you'd want to do less damage because the additional effect of the power was more worthwhile this round.</p><p></p><p>However, yes, it DID reduce everyone down to the number of options of the fighter(plus 3 or so, since the number of options for the fighter was 1 before. Now everyone has 4 options). They tried to find a happy medium.</p><p></p><p>Ever tried to sleep 3 hours after waking up from 8 hours of sleep? You are normally not tired enough. Plus, the mechanics encourage the type of gameplay they want. That's the key. Don't want a party to rest after every encounter? Make it impossible with the rules. Plus, give them incentives(like milestones) for continuing.</p><p></p><p>The in game reasons are just fluff anyways. They don't mean anything. If I said "all PCs in D&D are special alien infected demons who are completely immune to pain and can never be permanently wounded. They can regenerate, but only a limited amount per day until they hibernate for 6 hours. This is a secret, even to them however." then that would be an explanation. However, it wouldn't change the game in the slightest. And a bunch of people would complain that they didn't like that flavor. If I give no explanation then each DM can come up with the best fluff they want.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I just don't believe there is a rule that would be believable that were still balanced.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 4100566, member: 5143"] Sure, of course it can be. Is it as INTERESTING as playing a wizard, cleric, druid, etc? Not in most cases. Has almost everyone in my group enjoyed playing a Warblade way more than a fighter? Yep. Well, this is where you lose me a bit. HP have never made sense. We've always just glossed over the problems with them because we didn't want to keep track of conditions or roll on a random table to see if enemies hit me in the arm so I was -2 to hit with that arm. We didn't want to deal with the hassle of having to stop and rest for two weeks because the fighter broke his leg. I can't think of any form of hitpoints that make sense in all cases and are still fun. Feel free to explain one to me, but no edition of D&D has had HP that make sense. You can...but it never worked. In 2e there was no way to reliably predict the power level of PCs because you had no idea if the players had bracers of ac 0 at 3rd level or not. DMs didn't know what was an appropriate level for a +4 sword other than guessing. So guesses varied dramatically. Even in 3e where they tried to fix this by assigning gp values to all the items and then giving wealth by level guidelines most DMs ignored them and gave out way too powerful items. Even when they gave out appropriate gp, players would stack items in one area rather than spread them around. So if a player could get 4 items that all added to AC, he'd do it and get a nearly unhittable AC. Sure, it's possible to just say "Players shouldn't be given rings before they reach 11th level." But then you have the players who insist on finding people who have rings and steal them or to commission a wizard to create one for them when they are 5th level, spending all their money on it. Haven't seen it yet. Ran a number of games at DDXP and none of the groups wanted to rest early. All of them looked at their number of healing surges remaining and said "we have enough to survive more battles and we can win battles with just our at will and encounter powers, let's keep going." This is in sharp contrast to my experience running 3e where the prevailing opinion is "Spells that are of levels below your second highest are almost not worth casting. When you are an 11th level cleric and are reduced to only 1st-4th level spells, you should rest as you won't survive another encounter." That's not really true. I found that some people's dailies were area of effects and they wouldn't be used until the enemies bunched up or the encounter was deemed "the hard one". The per encounter powers were mostly used when tactically appropriate rather than immediately at the beginning of every encounter. When your at will attack does 1d8+4 and your encounter power does 1d8+4 and one pushes an enemy back and the other knocks him prone there really isn't a "best" option. Sometimes it worked the other way around, where you'd want to do less damage because the additional effect of the power was more worthwhile this round. However, yes, it DID reduce everyone down to the number of options of the fighter(plus 3 or so, since the number of options for the fighter was 1 before. Now everyone has 4 options). They tried to find a happy medium. Ever tried to sleep 3 hours after waking up from 8 hours of sleep? You are normally not tired enough. Plus, the mechanics encourage the type of gameplay they want. That's the key. Don't want a party to rest after every encounter? Make it impossible with the rules. Plus, give them incentives(like milestones) for continuing. The in game reasons are just fluff anyways. They don't mean anything. If I said "all PCs in D&D are special alien infected demons who are completely immune to pain and can never be permanently wounded. They can regenerate, but only a limited amount per day until they hibernate for 6 hours. This is a secret, even to them however." then that would be an explanation. However, it wouldn't change the game in the slightest. And a bunch of people would complain that they didn't like that flavor. If I give no explanation then each DM can come up with the best fluff they want. I just don't believe there is a rule that would be believable that were still balanced. [/QUOTE]
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