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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 4101632" data-attributes="member: 58197">This is misunderstanding the nature of abstraction.  What you're describing here is not "abstract," it's "undefined."Your Charisma score is an abstraction.  It encompasses such things as physical attractiveness, social graces, force of personality, and magnetism.When you use your Charisma to influence somebody, what happens?  Well, they may have been seduced by your good looks, impressed by your breeding and manners, daunted by your forceful presence, drawn to your magnetic personality, or some mixture of the above.  Charisma being the abstraction that it is, there's no way to know which of those factors were involved or to what extent.  You the player are free to choose whichever fits your character.What you do know, however, is that some of those factors were at work.  The rules do not say whether the person was influenced by your pretty face or by your charming words, but in the absence of a successful attack roll, they weren't influenced by you whacking them over the head.  Whacking people over the head is not one of the factors that is abstracted into Charisma; there are other mechanics to handle that.Furthermore, the mechanical effects of Charisma are in line with things that could reasonably be accomplished through the factors that make up Charisma.  Your Charisma lets you bend other people to your will.  It does not let you carry heavy loads, because that is not something you could reasonably achieve by means of good looks, charming manners, and so forth.So the question is, what are the factors that are abstracted into hit points and healing surges?  I'm not asking for an answer on this--we've seen quite a few put forward already--but pointing out that it is a legitimate question and that merely saying, "It's an abstraction," is not a sufficient answer.</blockquote>

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