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<blockquote data-quote="Alex319" data-source="post: 4657831" data-attributes="member: 45678">It seems to me that part of the reason this discussion seems to be going in circles is that we actually agree on most of the main points.It seems like the following are points that we can agree on:1. More so than previous editions, D+D 4e is designed with &quot;balance&quot; as a guiding principle. This was done because many (though not all) players desire balance, and it's a lot easier to houserule in &quot;unbalanced&quot; elements to a &quot;balanced&quot; system if that is what is desired, than to houserule &quot;balance&quot; into a fundamentally &quot;unbalanced&quot; game.2. For many players, consistency with a particular fictional source (like LOTR, Harry Potter, etc.), particular setting, or particular model of how the world works is more important than &quot;balance.&quot; In this case, consistency with the fiction/setting/model is fundamentally opposed to game balance, if said fiction/setting/model includes &quot;unbalanced&quot; elements like wizards being more powerful than fighters. In this case, however, it is usually simple to houserule whatever &quot;unbalanced elements&quot; you like back in, and it's the players' decision as to whether the gain in consistency outweighs the loss in balance.3. It seems like what some players are asking for is a D+D that is designed with &quot;consistency with the fiction/setting/model&quot; as a guiding principle rather than &quot;balance&quot; as a guiding principle. This seems to be an unreasonable thing to expect, because the D+D designers have no way of knowing which fiction/setting/model you want to play with. (Unless you're referring to the fictions, settings and models within D+D itself, like Eberron, Greyhawk, etc., but those setting by definition have whatever the D+D designers put in them, so saying that D+D is not consistent with them makes no sense.)If you're looking to build your own world from scratch, with powers, abilities, etc. of your own design, D+D isn't the right tool for the job. You're better off looking at generic &quot;toolkit&quot; systems, like GURPS, the Hero System, etc.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Alex319, post: 4657831, member: 45678"] It seems to me that part of the reason this discussion seems to be going in circles is that we actually agree on most of the main points. It seems like the following are points that we can agree on: 1. More so than previous editions, D+D 4e is designed with "balance" as a guiding principle. This was done because many (though not all) players desire balance, and it's a lot easier to houserule in "unbalanced" elements to a "balanced" system if that is what is desired, than to houserule "balance" into a fundamentally "unbalanced" game. 2. For many players, consistency with a particular fictional source (like LOTR, Harry Potter, etc.), particular setting, or particular model of how the world works is more important than "balance." In this case, consistency with the fiction/setting/model [I][B]is[/B][/I] fundamentally opposed to game balance, if said fiction/setting/model includes "unbalanced" elements like wizards being more powerful than fighters. In this case, however, it is usually simple to houserule whatever "unbalanced elements" you like back in, and it's the players' decision as to whether the gain in consistency outweighs the loss in balance. 3. It seems like what some players are asking for is a D+D that is designed with "consistency with the fiction/setting/model" as a guiding principle rather than "balance" as a guiding principle. This seems to be an unreasonable thing to expect, because the D+D designers have no way of knowing which fiction/setting/model you want to play with. (Unless you're referring to the fictions, settings and models within D+D itself, like Eberron, Greyhawk, etc., but those setting by definition have whatever the D+D designers put in them, so saying that D+D is not consistent with them makes no sense.) If you're looking to build your own world from scratch, with powers, abilities, etc. of your own design, D+D isn't the right tool for the job. You're better off looking at generic "toolkit" systems, like GURPS, the Hero System, etc. [/QUOTE]

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