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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 4658081" data-attributes="member: 1003">I don't put up with moral relativism in games or real life. There are universal rules of right and wrong. I'm with C.S. Lewis on this one.Now, sussin' out what's right and what's wrong can be interesting talk, but I'm with Jasperak when I consider it agora-talk, not game-table-talk. Games and serious ethical discussion just don't mix well.And the rest of DarkKestral's post is exactly why I feel that way. Those too-many too-long paragraphs? Not what I want at the game-table. Sorry.That's why we have Cosmic Evil. It makes it easy.D&D doesn't need moral ambiguity to be fun. Cosmic Evil is one of the design constraints that allows fun.I liked reading Watchmen (or watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer). They're thought provoking. But I don't "play" those. I play Chess. And there's a not a whole lot of moral ambiguity in Chess, is there? We don't ask if the Rook really deserved that, or if Queen vs. Pawn is "fair." Chess isn't about that. It's about the fair competition between players. So is basketball, go, etc. D&D has some neat roleplaying aspects that allow the players to define what "success" looks like, but fundamentally it's a game.  In games you accept certain rules and constraints, then take no prisoners until you win. That's called "play", and it's pretty fun.And this brings me back to another Jasperak alluded to: Most DMs aren't Alan Moore or Joss Whedon, let alone Thomas Aquinas. And the chance that the DM is exploring new ethical ground is pretty slim. That's some well covered ground, if you know what I mean.Now, just to make sure I've stated my position here:1) Sometimes the players are tricked. That guy who hired them was an Evil Necromancer (whoops!). But that's not moral ambiguity. That's "Darn, we got suckered!". Once you know he's a Necromancer you can proceed quickly to Kill Him & Take His Stuff.2) Sometimes you ally with one Evil to fight another Evil (like when Buffy worked with Spike in Season 3 to defeat Angel). That's not moral ambiguity. That's enlightened self interest and convenience. It doesn't make Spike good.3) Sometimes the group decides pre-campaign that it's going to be an S&S campaign where might makes right and the best things in life is to sweep aside your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women. That's not moral ambiguity either. It's amorality. Conan doesn't ask those questions. Alignment is not used in these games.</blockquote>

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