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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rechan" data-source="post: 4658542" data-attributes="member: 54846">Yeah, but you have no right to tell me I'm playing the game wrong. Okay, I want you to explain to me what you think a morally ambiguous game of D&D looks like. Go ahead.From the way you talk, I expect your response to look like this:DM: "All right, goblins charge from the underbrush towards the caravan. I'd like everyone to roll a philosophy check."Player 1: "I got a 23. I understand the importance of self preservation in the desire for primitive humanoids to raid caravans. But, according to Aristotle, man does not need to infringe on another man for survival. There are, after all, non-lethal ways to sustain oneself, especially in a world such as this with magic that can grow and produce food. I should have a +2 to my next Talk Reason check in order to avoid a violent altercation."DM: "Unfortunately, the head goblin rolled a 19. He counters your current Philosophy check with his Dodge Empathy skill. His band gains self worth from raiding caravans. The goblins pull out their weapons."Player 2: "But wait. I want to quote Kirkiguard - can that give me a bonus?"Player 3: "And I have this passage of 'The Republic', that should help."DM: "One at a time, please."You say D&D is Epic fantasy, therefore it's not "not a coffee house in Prague." It's also a strategy game, but it isn't a Sun Tzu lecture or a Military Academy. It's also a game about fighting, but it's not a martial arts or fencing class. It's a game about math, but it isn't a course in staitstics. It's also a game about acting a role, but it's not a stage play on Broadway. It's also a game about playing elves, but it's not Santa's Workshop.D&D is a rules system. Everything else is what you do with it. That's it. There's nothing about Shadowrun that makes it inherently better to play Morally Ambiguous games than D&D Modern; the only difference between the two are the rule systems. Anything one can do with D&D, Fantasy GURPS and Fantasy HERO can do, and vice versa.Who the hell is making an argument? Here, let me put it to you this way: D&D is a great medium for telling a story, and some stories can be morally ambiguous.I really, really don't get this argument.We pretend to be elves that cast magic for gods sake; there's not much room to throw stones at someone else's hypothetical mental clarity.What makes you think that the point is to 'develop' or 'learn' something? Saying that someone likes to play morally ambiguous games so they can "develop a moral compass" is like saying someone likes playing a barbarian because "they have anger issues they need to work out" or likes to play a cleric because "they want to develop a closer relationship with God". It's a cop-out argument so you can make morally ambiguous games look stupid. I know what right and wrong is. I know what good and evil is. No matter what my character does in a game, it is not going to change my belief system. I don't use D&D to change anything about me, I do it because it's fun, and you know what? I find morally ambiguous games fun. It's that simple. And doing them with D&D is not hard and still enjoyable.So you can't really tell me "D&D isn't a medium for moral ambiguity" when I can use it for it, I and my players like it. If it wasn't, then we couldn't do it successfully. If it wasn't, then Eberron wouldn't exist or be so successful. If D&D was only Epic Heroic Fantasy, there wouldn't be supplement after supplement on rules for playing monsters.Or, we can do it your way: D&D is a horrible way to reinforce Good and Evil. D&D is a system of probability and simple math. If you need something to help you be Good, then go to church.</blockquote>

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