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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5486636" data-attributes="member: 54877">Well-designed board games have things to teach RPGs, but a basic RPG is not a board game any more than it is a film, play, novel, computer game, etc.&nbsp; &nbsp;If someone wants to make a really good board game that &quot;invokes&quot; the D&amp;D experience, then that can be done.&nbsp; Maybe already has.&nbsp; Heck, even the old Dungeon is pretty fun for awhile, and it is nowhere near Euro-design.&nbsp; But if that is the goal, then stick to that.&nbsp; If you try to make it an introduction to D&amp;D, you'll just fail at the board game part.&nbsp; Make it a good game in its own right, &quot;invoke&quot; the right feel, and some people will enjoy the feel enough to want to experience in some other media.&nbsp; You could theoretically do the same thing with a good D&amp;D film, but experience thus far suggests this is not a good use of resources. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/angel.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":angel:" title="Angel&nbsp; &nbsp; :angel:" data-shortname=":angel:" />&nbsp;If an almost 11-year old can grasp some of the nuances of Agricola after a mere 4 to 5 games, then I'm sure the same kid can handle some quite sophisticated roleplaying constructs.&nbsp; Since my almost 11-year old has, I assume that the &quot;12 and older&quot; note on the tin is not unreasonable, on average.&nbsp; The Agricola rules are terribly written and presented (the one black mark on an otherwise excellent game).&nbsp; If not for the internet, I would have missed stuff in it.&nbsp; I'm not sure my kid would have stayed with it.&nbsp; But she didn't need to read it--merely listen to my explanation and play it.&nbsp; However, Agricola the game is one that make explanation easy.&nbsp; Things fits together in ways that make sense.&nbsp; And it does not condescend to its users.&nbsp; &nbsp;This is one of the reasons that D&amp;D took off when it did (one of many).&nbsp; Whatever else Gygax and early company does, and however confusing some of it can be, the game never condescends.&nbsp; There is a rule of thumb in software design that I think could profitably be adapted to roleplaying games:&nbsp; In software, roughly, make it right, make it fast, make it friendly--in that order.&nbsp; That is, there is no point in making a feature user-friendly if it doesn't work or runs so slow that no one will use it.&nbsp; I suspect that if a game was made &quot;right&quot; first, then &quot;handling time&quot; was addressed, and then one tried to make it as user-friendly as possible within those first two contraints--we'd get something better than what we have.&nbsp;&quot;Premature optimization is the root of all design evil.&quot;&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5486636, member: 54877"] Well-designed board games have things to teach RPGs, but a basic RPG is not a board game any more than it is a film, play, novel, computer game, etc. If someone wants to make a really good board game that "invokes" the D&D experience, then that can be done. Maybe already has. Heck, even the old Dungeon is pretty fun for awhile, and it is nowhere near Euro-design. But if that is the goal, then stick to that. If you try to make it an introduction to D&D, you'll just fail at the board game part. Make it a good game in its own right, "invoke" the right feel, and some people will enjoy the feel enough to want to experience in some other media. You could theoretically do the same thing with a good D&D film, but experience thus far suggests this is not a good use of resources. :angel: If an almost 11-year old can grasp some of the nuances of Agricola after a mere 4 to 5 games, then I'm sure the same kid can handle some quite sophisticated roleplaying constructs. Since my almost 11-year old has, I assume that the "12 and older" note on the tin is not unreasonable, on average. The Agricola rules are terribly written and presented (the one black mark on an otherwise excellent game). If not for the internet, I would have missed stuff in it. I'm not sure my kid would have stayed with it. But she didn't need to read it--merely listen to my explanation and play it. However, Agricola the game is one that make explanation easy. Things fits together in ways that make sense. And it does not condescend to its users. This is one of the reasons that D&D took off when it did (one of many). Whatever else Gygax and early company does, and however confusing some of it can be, the game never condescends. There is a rule of thumb in software design that I think could profitably be adapted to roleplaying games: In software, roughly, make it right, make it fast, make it friendly--in that order. That is, there is no point in making a feature user-friendly if it doesn't work or runs so slow that no one will use it. I suspect that if a game was made "right" first, then "handling time" was addressed, and then one tried to make it as user-friendly as possible within those first two contraints--we'd get something better than what we have. "Premature optimization is the root of all design evil." :p [/QUOTE]

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