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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5486718" data-attributes="member: 59082">Perhaps, yes. Or maybe there needs to be a bridge between the board game and the RPG, which is where I think a good basic set would come in (Hussar's idea is intriguing in this regard). I don't think there is anything wrong with Castle Ravenloft for what it is--a D&D themed board game--but it only carries a small part of the D&D experience, and it doesn't carry any of what sets an RPG apart from everything else. And once you get into what sets an RPG apart you are, well, playing an RPG and not a board game. Again, the play of imagination--or as pemerton put it, the "shared imagination space"--is what makes RPGs unique and, I would argue, truly special and inspiring. The combat and adventure is what makes it fun, but participating in a living world of imagination is the true gift of the RPG.As to the former, yes, which is where the more "artsy" rules lite RPGs come in and why a game like Savage Worlds (which is really lite-to-medium) has a strong fan base.True, and as a high school teacher I'm still surprised how strong it is today among non-nerdy kids. I am also surprised at how when I sit down and explain what an RPG is to one of these kids, their eyes spark with interest - both because I'm a "cool teacher" in their eyes and they respect me (for some reason!), but also because the idea of an RPG is inspiring to them, once they hear what it actually is beyond their preconceived notions. That said, by and large those preconceived notions are reinforced when a newbie is handed a character sheet with an overwhelming number of statistics. I'm not saying that D&D as a whole should be simpler, but that I would advocate a modular and bifurcated approach with a basic, core game, and a more complex advanced game. The latter "fits over" the former, although one could theoretically still play basic characters in an advanced game...it is just a greater or lesser degree of detail (and thus accounting). Yes, but you are underestimating, I think, both the apparent complexity of the game to a newbie and "non-nerd", and also the actual complexity of the feats and powers and all of the conditions.When I hear long-time D&D players downplay the complexity of the game, especially 3.5 or 4E, I am reminded of a computer geek who just doesn't get that not everyone knows how to program code or even what HTML is; or a car mechanic who doesn't realize that the average person doesn't know the difference between an alternator and a carburetor and then gets annoyed at you for it. There is no way around the fact that to most people, RPGs are complex, and while complexity isn't bad, the entry has to be relatively simple and easy.I kind of have to laugh at Bill Slaviscek's attempt to market Essentials as getting on the highway at the 1st Avenue instead of 10th; that is just hogwash. In reality, Essentials is like getting on at 7th or 8th Avenue (or even if the Red Box gets you on at 1st, it isn't exactly the same highway!).Actually, I agree with you, although I still think that there needs to be something between Wrath of Ashardalon and D&D 4E, Essentials or not. I haven't read through my copy of Wrath, but do they say anything about D&D the RPG? Are they marketing the board games as a "gateway drug" to the RPG? I'm not aware of them doing so.Interesting idea. I'm not sure if it would work but it would certainly be better than anything I've seen WotC come up with recently.We're in complete agreement here. My current D&D group is on hiatus because I'm having a case of DM burnout and no one else wants to take up the reins. Some have suggested that we just have a board game night and I'm a bit hesitant because, quite honestly, playing D&D (or an RPG) was the major allure of game night, especially considering that my friendship with my group is more on the casual level. Playing a board game with friendly acquaintances isn't as much of a draw to spend a regular night away from my wife, especially given that the evenings are the only times that we have alone without the homestead being in total chaos (we have a 2 and 5 year old).Part of my burn out is that I haven't had the time or energy to really plan the type of campaign I want to run. Due to time constraints I've mainly just been using pre-published dungeoncrawly adventures, with little plot, story, or role-playing - in other words, without most of the elements that separate RPGs from board games. Now I really like adventure and dungeoncrawls, but it can only carry a game for so long - there needs to be something more to sustain a long-term campaign.</blockquote>

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