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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Xini" data-source="post: 3371063" data-attributes="member: 50271">Ok it seems I've been a little miss leading in my opening litany.I am present a player in two games of D&D and have been with this group for a few years now. I have no desire to ditch them nor any immediate need to graffiti the PHB. This is just what me and a friend (who is the DM of one of the games) stay up until like 2am discussing. I figured it may be a good topic on a forum of role-players.I'm not really looking for a game which is trying to be realistic in harsh terms like flashpoint on the PC when compared to battlefield 2142 but I would object if I fired a rifle at someone in battlefield 2 and then they danced a little, declared they were of a totally new class which I'd never heard of but were apparently existing for thousands of years and are completely immune to bullets (sorry but sarcasm is just sooo addictive). All I'm looking for is D&D to try to limit themselves to things like left always being opposite to right and not suddenly inverted  so it's parallel!I have had a look into GURPS (thanks to those suggesting alternate routes, I guess at some point I'd need to just plant my feet and scream till I'm sick or until the group agrees to try something new or beat me unconscious). Is there any good way of summarising all those sidebars? The reason I ask is because that element of the layout I think would be the most confusing to ex D&D players.I'll check out this GURPS Lite though I don't hold out much hope of shifting the players. Oh and in anticipation of the point about "if they're happy with it then who are you to screw with it" but it's usually based around one of those points that mass arguments break out and the whole system just supports bad practices. The best example is the Cleric with a pearl of power and divine metamagic ( persistent ), the BAB of a fighter 4 levels higher than them all day for one spell and less feats than the fighter spent trying to achieve the same. Therefore I am trying to find something to offer to them, kind of like showing them something so bright and shiny that all arguments would be forgotten (okay so I'm an idealist as well as a bit of a perfectionist).I'm not familiar with this HARN though so I'll go check that out.Shadowrun has interesting rules conventions but it's just as easy to break (personally I don't like to engage in such persuits but this DM who I talk to shucks game systems like he's shelling peas). I do like the idea of the game but for me the whole doom and gloom is a downer. It's why I don't play Warhammer.Mind you though I think I stopped at 3rd ed. I think I've only got about half a dozen books for 4th so maybe it's an improvement in total?Oh, for a little guidance, my favourite game was 1st ed Conspiracy X. I now have 2nd ed but I've no chance of dragging people to anything but fantasy games. Well some but not all and that causes friction.</blockquote>

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