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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BlackMoria" data-source="post: 3551361" data-attributes="member: 424">Edena:Your suppositions have alot of non sequitur logic in it and you have arrived at a conclusion that is incorrect.Pacifism - One can be a pacifist and a skilled warrior at the same time.  They are not mutually exclusive concepts.  Pacifism is not echewing violence at any cost, pacifism is echewing violence as a means to settle disputes.  Self defence is very much allowed under the pacifism philosphy, as is the defence of family and community.I submit to you that elves as you portrayed them are an impossibility in a fantasy setting.  In a world filled with dangerous creatures likes orc and goblin hordes, dragons, beholders, etc - any race that takes such a extreme pacifist stance would have been extinct long ago.  Kick the Puppy Syndrome - this is the suppostion you make that the reasons the elves invite aggression to themselves is because of racial predjuice and jealousy.   Nations go to war over resources, either temporal or political.  Even the genocides of the 20th century are more to do with political and temporal power than simply killing people because they are 'different'.  Ethnic cleansing is about redrawing political and physical boundaries, acquiring territory, and removing competition for resources.  Attacking those who are 'different' is a convenient way to justify it.Therefore, the notion that just being 'elves' is grounds for aggression to elves is a poor premise to justify why elves got the short end of the stick.Adaptive Society - you discounted completely the concept of adaptive societies.  Societies adapt to the current reality and can do so without sacrificing 'who they are' in the process.Look at any large ethnic group that is displaced (by choice or otherwise) and they hang onto the values of what they are while adapting to the reality of the new culture settings they find themselves in.  Proof of that is ethnic quarters in cities, like Chinatowns, Italian quarters, etc.  which maintain a cultural connection to the old country yet make allowances for the country in which that ethnic group currently resides.Elves can go from pacifist to militarism without sacrificing their core being because war is not a constant, even in our real world.  Wars start and wars always end at some point and then life goes back to normal, until the next war comes along.   Elves going from pacifist to determined warriors doesn't in any way mean that elves are 'going human' - it means that elves now have to take settle issues by warlike means as a final option.  A elven artisan or poet that takes up the sword is still a artisan or a poet - just one with a sword now who has to learn and use a new skill set - that of a warrior.Settings - ok, lets say that most settings show elves are declining.  Are there reasons within the setting that support that supposition and do they make sense?  The elf as victim is too overused and in most case, not well supported in the setting except for the authors proclaiming that 'elves are declining or are not a dominate player on the world stage'Here are some alternate explainations to  non-dominate elves in a setting.Elves are isolationist.  This doesn't necessarily mean that elves feel superior or are arrogant racists to have this viewpoint.   I can make a case for elves being tied to the natural world more closely than other races and preferring to eschew the 'civilizing' (natural to an artifical or non-natural world) trends of humans.  Elves don't like the 'feel' of towns and cities or dwarven mines and underground cities and therefore, limit contact with the rest of the world and contact is on their terms.   However, the elves are powerful mililtarily and magically and therefore enforce the limitation of social interaction.Elves are mysterious.  Something about elves make other humanoids uneasy around elves.  In this situation, the other races are the others limiting contact with elves because of the natural mistrust when dealing with something one can't understand.  Elves feel this tension and reciprocate by limiting contact with other races.I can go on but I hit the salient points of why I think your premises are unsupportable.I can have pacifist elves still be elves even in the face of aggression because wars are 'temporary interludes' in the life of a elf and just like in the real world, the majority of soldiers in wartime are not bloody thirsty killers, they are normal, peaceful people who are required to take up arms and kill the enemy and once the war is over, they go back to their normal lives, with the guilt of the necessary deaths of others on their hands.And while you might have ultra pacifist elves in your setting, the very notion doesn't work for a dangerous world full of dangerous creatures. IMC, elves are peaceful but very competent warriors and terrible to behold when stirred to war.</blockquote>

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