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<blockquote data-quote="mmadsen" data-source="post: 3570193" data-attributes="member: 1645">Edena, I understand that half the point of posting is to think out loud, but I'm having trouble -- and I think a lot of people are having trouble -- trying to figure out your point.On the one hand, you seem to be looking at the &quot;problem&quot; through the very, very narrow lens of the game mechanics.&nbsp; Then, on the other hand, you seem to be introducing one or two hand-picked ideas from outside the game mechanics, which imply that elves cannot thrive or even survive.I think it's a mistake to look at each race as composed of thousands of PCs of that race, with players behind them, going over the rulebooks, figuring out the optimal strategy for that society of PCs to follow.The folk of those societies don't think, &quot;Hey, we can all be wizards and clerics if we choose to!&quot;&nbsp; They grow up to farm, or herd, or fight -- whatever role they fit into in that society.&nbsp; After all, why don't undeveloped countries in the real world simply develop?&nbsp; Why don't they just do what will obviously work?&nbsp; Because it's not that simple, and no one person with the rule book for Earth 3.5 gets to make all the optimal choices.I think you're taking an amazingly narrow view of how the game world works by assuming the rules for playing the game as a party of PCs should describe how entire societies of non-PCs would operate.Presumably actually researching new spells and discussing those experiments with other learned colleagues would be a better way to gain experience in magic -- but it would make for an awful game.At any rate, skill at war is best learned in combat, except for one little problem -- people die in combat.&nbsp; That's why people practice martial arts -- and that's exactly what I'd expect ageless elves to do.&nbsp; They may learn to fight at one-tenth the rate of the orc hordes, but they can do it with no casualties.&nbsp; Centuries later, the whole elf legion is still alive, unmaimed, and very, very good with sword and bow.Modern, industrial war seems to psychologically scar modern, industrial people.&nbsp; It's not clear that it scarred Mongol pastoralists, for instance.&nbsp; At any rate, post-traumatic stress disorder is well outside the rules, which you seem to be very narrowly basing your argument on, even if it fits many people's notion of elves.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mmadsen, post: 3570193, member: 1645"] Edena, I understand that half the point of posting is to think out loud, but I'm having trouble -- and I think a lot of people are having trouble -- trying to figure out your point. On the one hand, you seem to be looking at the "problem" through the very, very narrow lens of the game mechanics. Then, on the other hand, you seem to be introducing one or two hand-picked ideas from outside the game mechanics, which imply that elves cannot thrive or even survive. I think it's a mistake to look at each race as composed of thousands of PCs of that race, with players behind them, going over the rulebooks, figuring out the optimal strategy for that society of PCs to follow. The folk of those societies don't think, "Hey, we can all be wizards and clerics if we choose to!" They grow up to farm, or herd, or fight -- whatever role they fit into in that society. After all, why don't undeveloped countries in the real world simply [i]develop[/i]? Why don't they just do what will [i]obviously[/i] work? Because it's not that simple, and no one person with the rule book for Earth 3.5 gets to make all the optimal choices. I think you're taking an amazingly narrow view of how the game world works by assuming the rules for playing the game as a party of PCs should describe how entire societies of non-PCs would operate. Presumably actually researching new spells and discussing those experiments with other learned colleagues would be a better way to gain experience in magic -- but it would make for an awful game. At any rate, skill at war is best learned in combat, except for one little problem -- people die in combat. That's why people practice martial arts -- and that's exactly what I'd expect ageless elves to do. They may learn to fight at one-tenth the rate of the orc hordes, but they can do it with no casualties. Centuries later, the whole elf legion is still alive, unmaimed, and very, very good with sword and bow. Modern, industrial war seems to psychologically scar modern, industrial people. It's not clear that it scarred Mongol pastoralists, for instance. At any rate, post-traumatic stress disorder is well outside the rules, which you seem to be very narrowly basing your argument on, even if it fits many people's notion of elves. [/QUOTE]

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