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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3571689" data-attributes="member: 2020">Ok.  Where in the game rules are elvish societies defined?  Where in the game rules does it state or imply elves are doomed?  You've asked many times.  Here are some excerpts from the core books.  -  From the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 20:  'A moment of reflection will bring them to the unalterable conclusion that the game is heavily weighted towards mankind.'  'Advanced D&D is unquestionably 'humanocentric', with demi-humans, semi-humans, and humanoids in various orbits around the sun of humanity.  Men are the worst monsters, particularly high level characters such as clerics, fighters, and magic-users - whether singly, in small groups, or in large companies.  The ultra-powerful beings of other planes are more fearsome - the 3 D's of demi-gods, demons, and devils are enough to strike fear into most characters, let alone when the very gods themselves are brought into consideration.  Yet, there is a point where the well-equipped, high-level party of adventurers can challenge a demon prince, an arch-devil, or a demi-god.  While there might well be some near or part humans with the group so doing, it is certain that the leaders will be human.  In cooperation men bring ruin upon monsterdom, for they have no upper limits as to level or acquired power from spells or items.'  'The game features humankind for a reason.  It is the most logical basis in an illogical game.  From a design aspect it provides the sound groundwork.  From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it provides the most readily usable assumptions.  From a participation approach it is the only method, for all players are, after all is said and done, human, and it allows them the role with which most  are most desirous and capable of indentifying with.'  From the 1st Edition Player's Handbook, page 14:  Elven classes allowed and level limits:  Cleric:  7th (NPCs only)  Druid:  No  Fighter:  7th (elven fighters with less than 17 strength are limited to 5th level; those with 17 strength are limited to 6th level)  Paladin:  No  Ranger:  No  Magic-User:  11th (Elven magic-users with intelligence of less than 17 are limited to 9th level;  those with intelligence of 17 are limited to 10th level)  Illusionist:  No  Thief:  Unlimited  Assassin:  10th level  Monk:  No  From the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 21:  ' ... ((elves)) concerning themselves with natural beauty, dancing and frolicking, playing and singing, unless necessity dictates otherwise.  They are not fond of ships or mines, but enjoy growing things and gazing at the open sky.  Even though elves tend towards haughtiness and arrogance at times, they regard their friends and associates as equals.  They do not make friends easily, but a friend (or enemy) is never forgotten.  They prefer to distance themselves from humans, have little love for dwarves, and hate the evil denizens of the woods.  Their humor is clever, as are their songs and poetry.  Elves are brave but never foolhardy.  They eat sparingly;  they drink mead and wine, but seldom in excess.  While they find well-wrought jewelry a pleasure to behold, they are not overly interested in money or gain.  They find magic and swordplay (or any refined combat art) fascinating.  If they have a weakness it lies in these interests.'  From the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 24:  Elves:  base age (starting PCs) 100 years, plus variable 5d6 years  From the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 20:  'The human race has one special ability in the AD&D game:  Humans can choose to be of any class - warrior, wizard, priest, or rogue - and can rise to great level in any class.  The other races have fewer choices of character classes and usually are limited in the level they can attain.'    From the 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 22:  Racial Class and Level Limits  Elves:  Cleric 12th, Fighter 12th, Mage 15th, Ranger 15th, Thief 12th, Other Classes no  From the 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 21:  'The DM can, if he chooses, make any class available to any race.  This will certainly make your players happy.  But before throwing the doors open, consider the consequences.'  'If the only special advantage humans have is given to all the races, who will want to play a human?  Humans would be the weakest race in your world.  Why play a 20th-level human paladin when you could play a 20th-level elf paladin and have all the abilities of paladins and elves?'  'If none of the player characters are human, it is probably safe to assume that no non-player characters of any importance are human either.  Your world would have no human kingdoms, or hur powerful wizards.  It would be run by dwarves, elves, and gnomes.'  'This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you must consider what kind of world nonhumans would create.  Building a believable fantasy world is a daunting task;  creating a believable alien fantasy world (which is what a world dominated by nonhumans would be) is a huge challenge even for the best writers of fantasy.'  -    Those are, as stated, excerpts from the 1st and 2nd edition books.  Consider the settings based on the 1st Edition rules:  Mystara (the Known World), Greyhawk (Oerth), the Forgotten Realms (Toril, Faerun, the Hordelands (Toril, central part of continent), Oriental Adventures (generic, then Toril, eastern part of continent), Dragonlance (Ansalon, Taladas, Krynn) and the Ravenloft module I6 which inspired the Ravenloft setting.  Then consider the 2nd Edition settings:  Zakhara (AL-QADIM), Aebrinis (Birthright), Athas (Dark Sun), Maztica (continent on Toril), Mystara (Red Steel), Planescape, and Spelljammer (Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace, etc.)  In every single one of these settings, humans dominate.  Consider the 2nd Edition Arcane Age setting.  In Netheril, humans dominated.  They did not dominate elsewhere.  But it was NETHERIL that caused the downfall of Mystra and the loss of 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells for everyone, and which made the casting of High Magic deadly for elves.  HUMANS wrought this harm upon everyone, elves included.  In Myth Drannor, elves were dominant ... in Myth Drannor.  Then Myth Drannor was crushed by the Army of Darkness.  After the time of the First Flowering, elves were dominant over Faerun for a long time.  This is an exception to the rule above.  Elves lorded it over everyone.  Then the elves underwent the Crown Wars.  Most of the original elven civilizations collapsed, a great part of the entire elven population was slaughtered, and the survivors were scattered.  -    From the above I can conclude the following:  - In all the official settings in the current time frame of the game, humans dominate and elves are the side show.  - Historically, in Faerun, elves dominated after the First Flowering.  Then they destroyed themselves (a very human tendency and problem ...)  The survivors, weakened and scattered, were eventually overcome by assorted enemies.  - Historically, on Oerth, elves may never have dominated.  The Suloise Imperium and Baklunish Empire were human dominated, and history does not record beyond their time.  - On Krynn, elves never dominated.  Have never dominated since the Age of Starbirth.  But humans have dominated, they brought on the Cataclysm, and the elves suffered massively due to that event.  - On Aebrinis, elves once dominated.  Humans slaughtered them and took their lands, and now humans dominate.  - On Athas, halflings once dominated.  But never elves.  Then Rajak slaughtered most of both races, leaving the survivors as barbarians.  - In Realmspace and in several other crystal spheres, the elves achieved a brief dominance after the First Inhuman War.  But the scro are back, and elves are just another race struggling for survival in Wildspace.  - In Ravenloft, elves dominate nowhere.  They practically exist nowhere, since they are usually attacked on sight.  - The designers of 1st edition felt this (human dominance) was the appropriate situation, and he was the designer of 1st edition.  - The designers of 2nd edition also felt this (human dominance) was the appropriate situation.  - The dominace of humankind is backed up by most of the fantasy novels based on the AD&D game.  And many of these books are Classics in their own right, in my opinion.  * If the novels portray elves as inferior, if the settings portray elves as inferior, if the rules mandate that elves are inferior, and yet all of the above indicate a competitive world with competitive races, then I conclude that the elves are doomed. *  * Only in 3rd Edition, do I concede that this may not be the truth of matters. Yet humans are portrayed as dominant in the 3rd edition settings of Kalamar and Eberron also.  So perhaps even in 3rd Edition elves are still doomed.  The burden of proof to the contrary has yet to be presented.  *</blockquote>

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