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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Banshee16" data-source="post: 3571748" data-attributes="member: 7883">So you're changing the rules, so that now characters can go into negative ability scores, when the most basic of rules claim the you can't go below 0 in an ability score.This whole argument, though interesting, feels like you're just grabbing whatever rules or references you can, from whichever edition you need, to support your argument, but then ignoring anything that disagrees with it, in order to make your point.We still haven't seen a core reference to them not reproducing, or not being able to adapt, etc.As to farming, an episode of Digging for the Truth that I saw several weeks ago discussed the pre-classic Mayans, and mentioned how they were able to figure out that getting muck from swamps provided them with highly fertile soil that allowed them to support much larger than normal populations in concentrated areas, without being required to clearcut everything for farming.  The show made the claim that they ended up ruining things for themselves because they eventually needed to clearcut land, to get fuel they needed to work with the limestone they plastered all over their pyramids.  But in the absence of making giant pyramids, they could have sustained massive populations without clearcutting.  All living in the jungle.Who's to say the elves haven't figured out similar agricultural practices?  So they live in tree houses.  That means they're building vertically instead of horizontally....thus they need less land.  They could be having every tree/tree home supporting multiple vertically oriented gardens, on which they use both magic, and advanced agricultural practices to maximize the crop yield.I remain unconvinced that they are completely maladapted, and unable to compete.  Most of the "fluff" regarding lower reproductive rates is really in additional supplements, as already stated...it's not actually in the core.  But it does make sense, given that a population of beings who lived 500+ years, and also reproduce as fast as humans can, would likely be very unbalanced with everything around them.  They'd run out of room very quickly.  Maybe that's why there's a tendency for fluff to describe them as reproducing slowly.  Imagine how quickly a population would grow if a female elf had a child every 2-3 years......for a 200-300 year span of her life?In terms of core information, all we really know is that they're a little frailer than humans, a little more agile, they've got keener senses, a resistance to sleep and charm magic, are better at detecting hidden things, and can see in the dark as well as a cat, for a distance of 60' (which is a massive, massive advantage, in a pre-industrial world where thermal vision goggles and night vision goggles are unavailable).  And they live much longer.  On the other hand, they're not as skilled (fewer skill points), and they are less flexible with respect to what tricks they know (1 less feat).  I suspect that the rest is really just "noise".I'm thinking that a smart elven army would *always* fight human forces at night....likely from a distance, with bows.  Looking purely at abilities, I think the night vision is their largest advantage.  Try actually walking into a forest at night, with just a flashlight (to simulate a torch.  Better yet, try bringing a lamp which doesn't have a directional beam of light).  You get illumination directly around you, but the foliage very quickly dampens it.  You're a sitting duck for a person sitting 20' away relying on their own eyes, because the light illuminates you good enough to make you a perfect target.  And if he has low-light vision, it makes it even worse.Banshee</blockquote>

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