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Message: <blockquote data-quote="thedungeondelver" data-source="post: 3572674" data-attributes="member: 34865">I'm not trying to be harsh but most of Edena's stuff is tl;dr for me.  But something did catch my eye vis a vis the whole "elves are DOooooOOooooooOOOMed according to the 1e rules!" thing...And its this:Any time someone says to me "I want to play a demi-human" in the games that I run, I always recommend that they take thief as a multiclass.  Dwarf fighter?  Dwarf fighter/thief.  Elf magic-user?  Elf magic-user/thief.  Unlimited advancement as a thief makes for a formidable ally (or enemy) in any race, and couple that with the wicked fighting abilities and general toughness of, say, the...oh, I don't know...ELVES...who get a +1 to-hit with all swords and all bows ('cept crossbows), have nearly total surprise when wearing leather armor and moving alone or with their own kind similarly clad.  Then there's noticing concealed and secret doors.  Then there's infravision.  Then there's the whole "I'ma gonna live for four thousand years give or take" thing they have going on.  Man, they aren't doomed.  In fact, I'd say that elves have whatever world they live in on a string.  Take an elf, say he's got the requisite 19 INT to get up to that 12th level magic user.  But couple that wicked-bad spellcasting ability to thief abilities.  Now that elf magic-user can make himself utterly undetectable without magic, and with magic he is entirely and completely and for all practical purposes invisible.  You can't see him, you can't hear him, he can be in your throne room during the highest most top secret meetings listening in on everything and giving the information back to his own kind so they can plan accordingly.If you've got the Hand of Vecna to back your awesome plans up, unless you've already stuck it to your arm, then our buddy the elf m-u/t is probably going to find out where its at and take it with him on his way out.Moreover, the elves have a thousand or more years (again, in some extreme cases, nearly four thousand years) to wait you out, or to plan to undo whatever you might set in to motion.That doesn't sound like a doomed race to me.So you could have a group of elves, with literally a hundred hit points, 6th level magic at their disposal, lord knows what kind of magic items they've dug up along the way - no, this is not a doomed race.Moreover, on that food tip?  Dude.  Elven fighter/clerics.  Creating food and water on a daily basis since CY1!I mean ultimately if in your world(s) you say "ELVES ARE DOOMED, PERIOD!" then...well, in your world they're doomed, period.  That doesn't make it so by default, and, it isn't by default.  Even Gary stating flat out "This is a humanocentric game" doesn't mean they're doomed.  It means they're not human.Now yes, Gary pushed for a humanocentric vibe in 1e and frankly I don't have a problem with that.  But nowhere is there even the undertone that elves are DOOOOOOOOMED, MAN! in any of the stuff I've read for 1e.  Hell I can't wait for the chance to play again just so I can play a x/thief multiclass elf.</blockquote>

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