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Message: <blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 3573779" data-attributes="member: 30001">I'll start at the top, but I'm not going to get through all of this.  Besides, I'm not sure you guys are paying attention anyway.Does is say that trees have to grow coal and iron?  I'm not sure why you're thinking that other than you must think that trees are the only thing one finds in forests.  Now someone pointed out on this thread that gemstones can be found at the base of trees, and then you proceeded to argue something about how in the "real world, blah blah".  That's not relevant.  This is a fantasy world.  Certainly if the real world provides an example of gemstones existing somewhere in some quantity then it's not too taxing to assume that in a fantasy world that wants to support elfin civilization that you simply have to tweak the quantities.  That's assuming that the real world doesn't already support this case.  I think "real world" examples are appropriately used to show what is minimally possible, but since there are no elves in the real world, I don't think the logic goes the other way.So keeping this in mind, we can discuss the issue of elves and iron.Firstly - there's a question about how much iron elves really need.  I think it's in keeping with elfin culture being related to fey culture that elves use proportionately less iron than other races.  This means that they'd substitute other materials - mithril and kinds of wood.  For an example of wood, I'd point you to the old Greyhawk boxed set - I don't remember what it's called, but hornwood, ironwood, or whatever - wood that can be cured in such a way to be of metallic hardness.Now the iron itself can come from the forest - a forest is just a place where trees grow.  That's anywhere below the treeline.  That means a hilly region covered in trees - so why not iron mines?  That's probably more the territory of gnomes (at least IMC), but elves would live in the surrounding lands and could trade iron pretty cheaply to the gnomes for other stuff - like silk (another topic).  That's in the case where the gnomes wouldn't simply give the elves iron as direct tribute.Bog iron could be gathered from wetlands within forests.  While it's likely that I could find real-world cultures whose primary source of iron was bog iron (vikings?), it's unecessary because, again, we're talking fantasy.  The chemical composition of such iron and it's availability would be whatever is required to support the elfin civilization - and given the relatively low numbers I don't see much of a problem.  (BTW - the discussion of iron and coal in the same sentence leads me to believe you guys are thinking battleships and skyscrapers - I just don't think the iron requirements of elfin civilization would be as high as you sometimes (perhaps too conveniently) suggest).Finally, there are meteorites - perhaps a few huge meteorites slammed into the ground at the location of the forest in eons past, and the elves now collect what could be several tons of material from the crater floor.  I like this idea because it would explain the source of more exotic materials (like mithril and nickel).So those are three possible sources within a "forest" - and that's just using real-world examples.  Like I said, an alternate material like "ironwood" would probably be in order to give elves the kind of tech level that's assumed.Say "oh, that's not in the PHB" and then perhaps you can explain why people's clothes in DnD are of colors other than gray.  Because last time I checked, "dye" is not on the PHB equipment lists.  (Hmmm...dye is an example of a forest resource - but then that's like shooting fish in a barrel - wait...fish...barrels...ahhh - I can't stop thinking of forest resources!).  Basic point is that there are tons of resources in a forest environment, and it's a simple matter of thumbing through the encyclopedia to uncover them.)My time is up.  Let me know what you think about the sources of iron, or whether I should bother to come up with others.</blockquote>

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