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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3577807" data-attributes="member: 2020">Can you cite these variations, for the purposes of this debate?&nbsp; I am not sure what you are referring to, within the core books.&nbsp; Obviously, we do not need to change the RAW to extrapolate from them.&nbsp; We do extrapolate, and thus we create house rule races.&nbsp; That's quite the right thing to do, as you are implying.&nbsp; But in *this* case I must stick with the RAW (which is why I ask for the variations you cite within the RAW for elves) because this debate is based on the RAW.&nbsp; Agreed.&nbsp; And agreed.&nbsp; No argument or debate on this.&nbsp; It's patently obvious you are right.&nbsp; I am only debating from the point of view of the RAW.&nbsp; There is no solid ground for either of us to debate on otherwise:&nbsp; house rules are not solid ground, but shift and change as we shift and change them.&nbsp; Of course, the elves can be extrapolated into anything you want.&nbsp; That's a given.&nbsp; They could be extrapolated into lords of the settings.&nbsp; Or into situations as wretched as those the&nbsp; gully dwarves live within.&nbsp; Or any situation in between.&nbsp; Or all of them.&nbsp; But we are discussing the RAW.&nbsp; And they are standardized.&nbsp; It's a narrow framework (as previously, long ago pointed out) but the only framework from which to have a debate.&nbsp; And remember that from the RAW come the extrapolations.&nbsp; Don't we know ... remember all the uproar over raising level limits, because they were too low in 1st and/or 2nd edition?&nbsp; I do.&nbsp; (That was quite an uproar, I recall ...)&nbsp; From the RAW spring the extrapolations.&nbsp; Consider Tolkien's works to be a kind of RAW.&nbsp; And look what happened.&nbsp; The concept of 'doomed elves' proliferated.&nbsp; It still proliferates.&nbsp; It will go on proliferating.&nbsp; Extrapolation, in this case, from books ... but they laid down a framework, just as game rules do, to extrapolate from.&nbsp; So, we debate the RAW for 3rd Edition.&nbsp; See above.&nbsp; I make no such (obviously and patently absurd) claims.&nbsp; But a baseline must be used, for the debate.&nbsp; We cannot debate what is undefined.&nbsp; We will get nowhere.&nbsp; Example:&nbsp; the RAW do not state elves live in forests.&nbsp; Many house rule that elves do.&nbsp; But we cannot debate it, for one side will simply claim it's not in the RAW, and the other side will claim the RAW are irrelevant, and the chaos will go from there.&nbsp; Indeed, it's already happened ... in this thread.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 3577807, member: 2020"] Can you cite these variations, for the purposes of this debate? I am not sure what you are referring to, within the core books. Obviously, we do not need to change the RAW to extrapolate from them. We do extrapolate, and thus we create house rule races. That's quite the right thing to do, as you are implying. But in *this* case I must stick with the RAW (which is why I ask for the variations you cite within the RAW for elves) because this debate is based on the RAW. Agreed. And agreed. No argument or debate on this. It's patently obvious you are right. I am only debating from the point of view of the RAW. There is no solid ground for either of us to debate on otherwise: house rules are not solid ground, but shift and change as we shift and change them. Of course, the elves can be extrapolated into anything you want. That's a given. They could be extrapolated into lords of the settings. Or into situations as wretched as those the gully dwarves live within. Or any situation in between. Or all of them. But we are discussing the RAW. And they are standardized. It's a narrow framework (as previously, long ago pointed out) but the only framework from which to have a debate. And remember that from the RAW come the extrapolations. Don't we know ... remember all the uproar over raising level limits, because they were too low in 1st and/or 2nd edition? I do. (That was quite an uproar, I recall ...) From the RAW spring the extrapolations. Consider Tolkien's works to be a kind of RAW. And look what happened. The concept of 'doomed elves' proliferated. It still proliferates. It will go on proliferating. Extrapolation, in this case, from books ... but they laid down a framework, just as game rules do, to extrapolate from. So, we debate the RAW for 3rd Edition. See above. I make no such (obviously and patently absurd) claims. But a baseline must be used, for the debate. We cannot debate what is undefined. We will get nowhere. Example: the RAW do not state elves live in forests. Many house rule that elves do. But we cannot debate it, for one side will simply claim it's not in the RAW, and the other side will claim the RAW are irrelevant, and the chaos will go from there. Indeed, it's already happened ... in this thread. [/QUOTE]

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