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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3584837" data-attributes="member: 2020">Hey there, Machetaso.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Just some comments on your post.  No debate points, no rebuttals at all.  Just commentary.  I see a lot of complaints about this.  Forrester was against elves because Forrester saw them as over-powered people.  But Forrester was against them also because he saw them as sneering, condescending, better-than-you people (much like the illithid attitude, but without the power to back it up.)  3E elves don't seem to be special in the RAW.  Nothing exceptional ... they are ECL 0.  Certainly, the elves of old Delrune were generic.  There were differences in appearance, behavior, and culturally, but there were a basic 1E/2E/3E race.    (snip)    That is exactly what the Elves of Haldendreeva did, to an extreme, if I read you right.  In simple terms, they thought:  New spell called Lifeproof (new technology), alters things in our favor (changes combat mechanics to favor them), let's mass cast it (build enough infrastructure to mass produce new weapon.)  Stasis Clone was a bigger and better thing yet, and once the Constitution problem was addressed, it was used continuously (producing multiple episodes of the 50 Manshoons debacle, and other assorted uproars throughout a number of worlds and planes.)  Much more eloquent solutions?  Exactly so.  Exactly.  The main effort of current Haldendreevan elves is to find that eloquent - and elvish - solution, and not a solution based on human thinking and power escalation.  (They haven't succeeded yet, though.)  Most of the current peoples in my settings roll their eyes at the idea of another Super-Magic War (then kill the warmongers trying to start one.)  They've had quite enough of it.  Unfortunately, it took a Super-Magic War to knock this sense into them.  Some don't listen to reason anyways.  Some peoples have infiltrated the City of the Gods in the Black Ice (that city of super-science that has sat, undisturbed, throughout the whole scenario.)  And they think to capitalize on secrets learned.  Will they?  Or will they be put down?  Time will tell.  The ideas of killing other people, of greed, of jealousy, of powermongering, were already in the elves of old Delrune.  Although they were culturally more pacifistic than Furyondy or Perrenland, the seeds of darkness were already there.  The elves recognize this fact keenly now.  But like the Noldor, they recognized it only after the painful fact.  Prior to the Greyhawk Wars, the elves of Delrune had spent a millennia at peace.  After the Twin Cataclysms, the high elves moved into the Delrunian Highlands.  Even as the flannae peoples of Perrenland were left alone by the incoming oeridians, so were the nearby elves of Delrune.  It was a long, peaceful, prosperous, and pleasant time to be in, for the elves.    Does that compare with the Celts?  Sadly, to the victors go the writing of history, and the Romans were victorious in England and Wales.  They annihilated the Celtic culture there.  The Solistarim were not interested in the Delrunian culture.  Like the Romans, they simply wished to annihilate it and the elves and take the land.  Fascinating stuff.  History is a far more complex subject than a lot of people think.  LOL.  Again, fascinating stuff.  Thanks for putting this up.  The elves of Delrune were not so clever.  One must wonder why.  What was it about the vikings that made them so very clever and inventive?  What did they have, that the elves (and real world peoples they opposed) not have?  And yet the Romans beat the celts in war.  How did they do that?  What did the romans have that the celts did not, to win? (or was it sheer luck?)  Why didn't the celts of Scotland and Ireland strike back and retake England and Wales? The Fianna in Ireland were youths who lived in the forests almost exclusively from hunting, admittedly a tough lifestyle, but they seemed to pull it off.  Old permanent campfire sites where they used to cook game can still be found in Ireland.</blockquote>

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