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<blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 8330213" data-attributes="member: 6701124">The real world doesn't seem to have the equivalent of a 1 minute casting time commune or 1 action casting time zone of truth.&nbsp; It feels like those would make a difference in both theological debates and deciding schisms.&nbsp; On the other hand, there are cases where the sacraments might be invalidated because of the status of the priest.&nbsp; In the news last year was one in Detroit who found out he wasn't baptized with the correct formula, invalidating his baptism, confirmation, and ordination, and invalidating the marriages and other sacraments he had performed (I can't find a story saying they changed course and didn't make those he married get remarried).&nbsp; Apparently one can get a plenary indulgence for attending a priests first mass - no word if that was invalidated too.&nbsp; The existence of annulments would seem to imply there is no immediate divine check on requirements for the sacraments - so not the equivalent of some D&amp;D spells or a state based check in MtG.Who said &quot;perfection&quot;?&nbsp; It feels like there is a big difference between needing to be perfect to needing to not be evil in a good church.&nbsp; The later certainly has been disqualifying.&nbsp; And it feels like some deities demanding even more than rough alignment adherence has been a thing.&quot;A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral....A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).&quot; - 3.5 SRDAnd in 1e the higher level spells came directly from the deity. &quot;Commissioner, commissioner, what is your response to the atrocities committed by the officers in the 12th precinct?&quot;&quot;12th precinct?&nbsp; Is that one of ours in the city?&nbsp; They're still mostly getting bad guys and the station hasn't been burned down yet, right?&nbsp; &lt;shrugs&gt;&nbsp; Getting involved feels unusually meddlesome, let's let it ride.&quot;But seriously, I'm kind of used to the PC clerics getting occasional dreams or visions from their gods even if it isn't in the rules.&nbsp; Is that meddlesome?&nbsp; Would it not happen in worlds where the gods were hands off about major schisms and heresies and the like?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadence, post: 8330213, member: 6701124"] The real world doesn't seem to have the equivalent of a 1 minute casting time commune or 1 action casting time zone of truth. It feels like those would make a difference in both theological debates and deciding schisms. On the other hand, there are cases where the sacraments might be invalidated because of the status of the priest. In the news last year was one in Detroit who found out he wasn't baptized with the correct formula, invalidating his baptism, confirmation, and ordination, and invalidating the marriages and other sacraments he had performed (I can't find a story saying they changed course and didn't make those he married get remarried). Apparently one can get a plenary indulgence for attending a priests first mass - no word if that was invalidated too. The existence of annulments would seem to imply there is no immediate divine check on requirements for the sacraments - so not the equivalent of some D&D spells or a state based check in MtG. Who said "perfection"? It feels like there is a big difference between needing to be perfect to needing to not be evil in a good church. The later certainly has been disqualifying. And it feels like some deities demanding even more than rough alignment adherence has been a thing. "A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral. ... A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)." - 3.5 SRD And in 1e the higher level spells came directly from the deity. "Commissioner, commissioner, what is your response to the atrocities committed by the officers in the 12th precinct?" "12th precinct? Is that one of ours in the city? They're still mostly getting bad guys and the station hasn't been burned down yet, right? <shrugs> Getting involved feels unusually meddlesome, let's let it ride." But seriously, I'm kind of used to the PC clerics getting occasional dreams or visions from their gods even if it isn't in the rules. Is that meddlesome? Would it not happen in worlds where the gods were hands off about major schisms and heresies and the like? [/QUOTE]

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