Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8324779" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think the answer to your main question is yes.I don't know BitD except by (its extensive) reputation, but I think it might be an example of what you ask about: ie it is concerned with tomse of the darker aspects of humans and morality.Vincent Baker has multiple RPGs that can deal with harsh worlds and situations - Poison'd (almost inevitably), In A Wicked Age (not inevitably, but that's certainly one way it can trend) and of course Apocalypse World.Even Burning Wheel picks up serious elements from JRRT and from pulp fantasy in a way that some other FRPGs don't. BW's elves run the risk of committing suicide out of Grief (see eg Maedhros at the end of the Silmarillion); BW's dwarves run the risk of being driven mad by their Greed; the Life Paths for human include slavery and servitude lifepaths as well as lifepaths for knights and wizards.What none of those RPGs do - and I think it's not a trivial difference from D&D - is project a moral judgement (good/evil) onto the situations and possibilities that the games open up.A couple of examples might illustrate the point:(1) In AW, each character has a special consequence that flows from having sex with another character. For the Driver, this is If you and another character have sex, roll+cool. On a 10+, it’s cool, no big deal. On a 7–9, give them +1 to their Hx with you on their sheet, but give yourself -1 to your Hx with them on yours. On a miss, you gotta go: take -1 ongoing, until you prove that it’s not like they own you or nothing. Cool and Hx are both stats - Cool largely self-explanatory, Hx the stat that measures how well one character knows another. -1 ongoing is a debuff. Now if/when I get to run AW with my group I'm probably inclined to turn "have sex" into "share an intimate moment", because I'm a bit of a prude when it comes to RPGing, but that's not what's relevant here. Notice what this character ability tells us: a cool Driver isn't someone who makes connections or gets hung up on other people. Notice what this ability doesn't tell us: whether its good or bad that a cool Driver lives their life like that. The player of the Driver might be out to prove that it's not like they own me or nothing! Because the player probably wants to get rid of the debuff. But the player doesn't have to admire his/her character. Maybe s/he feels sorry for them! Or maybe we can look at the Driver like we do Shane - it's great when they come into town and help the little folk deal with the oppressors; it's a shame that they can never form bonds and settle down. Or maybe something else. (2) In BW, Elves accrue Grief (which is a rated attribute the same as Speed, Will, Perception, Agility, etc) based on the experiences they have. There is a table of experiences: roughly, the more suffering the Elf witnesses or undergoes, and the more they depart from their own values and commitments, the more their Grief increases. Sometimes (it's a highly rationed ability) an Elf can call on their Grief to give a bonus to a check - but this in itself tends to increase their Grief. Is an Elf who draws on their Grief admirable or regrettable? Is this "giving in", or is it "giving back as good as the Elves have got"? As an Elf player, do you want to keep your Grief low, or do you let it grow? The game doesn't dictate an answer.What does Vincent Baker (designer of AW) think is the truth about human intimacy? I don't know, beyond what I can infer from the fact that he seems to have been in a long-term relationship/marriage (?). What does Luke Crane (designer of BW) think is the proper role of grief, and grief-induced rage, in human affairs? I don't know. But I know that he can design a game that gives voice to Tolkienesque ideas better than any other I know!I'm not saying these games, or these designers, are perfect. (I know that Crane lost his position with Kickstarter due to his professional affiliation with Adam Koebel.) I think BW, in particular, has some gendered elements in its framing which run pretty close to the line if they don't cross over it - and it's interesting to see some changes in this respect in the most recent version. But I don't think anyone is going to read these games and think that Vincent Baker is advocating that we all should be cool Drivers, or that Luke Crane is cool with slavery or gender inequalities or unbridled grief-fuelled rage.</blockquote>

Verification