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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8325684" data-attributes="member: 82106">This is unsupportable just on the basis of what has been presented in this thread. We have a letter written by JRRT in which he states unequivocally that the Orc is evocative of (looks like and therefor will be associated with by the human mind, as that is how it works) 'mongolians' (IE central or east Asian people). Next we have the geographical and geocultural parallels between Middle Earth and our world. Certainly JRRT was AWARE of these? Certainly it must, at some point in the 40+ years of his creative endeavors, have occurred to him that this parallel would be evocative? I hold it rather difficult to oppose that IT WAS EVOCATIVE TO HIM. Else why so many parallels exist? Thus they MUST BE in LotR certainly stand-ins for exactly what they evoke! How could it not be thus???!!!! To say otherwise is ridiculous and in fact insulting to a man of considerable intellect and thoughtfulness. I further submit that he has TOLD US THIS WAS HIS INTENT when he stated this orc/Mongol association. He states it in terms of it being what we would call a 'trope' today. Mongolians are a horde of destructive, fecund, aggressive, civilization destroying, easterners and he is evoking all of these traits by describing orcs in the same fashion. This IS his intent! It cannot be otherwise. This is how literature (of any quality) must work! It paints a picture in the mind of the reader by evoking things, by drawing parallels which create associations in the minds of readers so as to bring this picture to life. And I think this failure to understand this whole point taints your arguments in general to be honest. I understand, and even agree to a point, that Tolkien was probably not trying to say that actual Asian people are basically orcs. Nor necessarily saying that evil comes from the east, etc. He is however using these stereotypes to draw a picture. This alone is hurtful to the people so stereotyped. Cast yourself in the shoes of a person of color who is DAILY subjected to systematic and often particularized prejudice, and then consider how they should view literature which evokes the stereotypes used to model this oppression and justify it. I mean, I am DEFINITELY not a disadvantaged minority here. I have been married to one, and am married to another, even that doesn't give me any license to explain the experience or claim I fully understand it. [USER=1125]@Tonguez[/USER] I'm guessing does, but it is not their job to fill us all in on the nature of the experience. Still, I can say that my observation is that this sort of depiction is a real bummer, and its (lack of) deliberateness is not even really very relevant. People get really tired of looking at it. Obviously the larger topic is pretty complicated, and culture is a huge mass of complicated stuff. So nobody can give simplistic answers to any of it. What do we do with legacy material? Should we change how we play D&D, and/or how it is written? Do we need to worry about it if we are all not people whom it would bother? What do I know? I'm just some guy. Personally I generally don't go in a lot for super stereotyped characters/NPCs/Races/whatever. OTOH I think [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] is right in saying that a lot of the violence that is depicted in D&D can be seen as justifiable. It is more a question of who is standing in for whom? Think about what would go through your mind if the depiction of orcs sounded more like people from your home town...</blockquote>

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