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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8327022" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, obviously we are having a relatively polite conversation. I am not actually trying to put us on different 'sides', because I expect we have pretty much the same goals and whatnot. Frankly, years ago, I probably reacted a bit like you are now, but I have come to see that I can go further and own the effects of whatever I do in the world, at the very least, completely and without reservations. Always hoping that I will also be met with a tolerant attitude as well.I'm just saying. People have used fictional races, often, to stand in for and comment on other people. I think some examples beyond JRRT were presented earlier in the thread which were rather more explicit than orcs. So, the use of fiction (and fantasy in particular) in an ethnically charged way is not new. Also I don't think this has to do with a 'struggle'. It has to do with simply people wanting to be free of bad images of creatures that are clearly associated with traits their ethnicities or other identities are associated with. It pigeonholes them, and it implicitly denigrates them. Nobody needs to be going out of their way to do it on purpose. It is just that, say you sit down to play D&D with your buds and a monster that is a caricature of YOU shows up? Its a bad guy. Suppose this sort of pigeonholing is constant, you start to get pretty tired of it. I know this happened to people in my family, so I know how tiring it got. When it ALSO shows up in your D&D game? That is a real bummer. Intentionality isn't really germane, nor is some complex history. That's all.Again, he is missing the point. When you are a BIPOC person, to use the category he chooses to address, you most certainly ARE aware that Orcs, as a D&D race, share a bunch of features which are also commonly attributed to BIPOC people! All the other stuff he says is simply irrelevant! There need not be some master plan or long history of explicit use of Orcs in D&D as such for racist purposes. The associations are preexisting and not something that has to be explicit within the game itself. Just like JRRT didn't have to explicitly draw the connections in his work, or in the letter cited earlier.Sure, but again, when an author incorporates symbology that has been used for questionable purposes doesn't he have to expect what will come? If you put swastikas into your game and depicted them as insignia for some organization in that game, are you not saying something? If that group is glorified, and if it exhibits any characteristics that might associate it with the obviously evoked real-world group's ideology, don't you think that would have some causal connection to people actually responding in the predictable fashion as a result? I think the case for Orcs is clearly a bit less blatant, but surely you can see how "the reader is responsible" cannot possibly be some sort of absolute response. The writer is ALSO responsible! Communication is 2-way.I don't think we're arguing about assumptions here. If you want to ask for license, that's fine you are entitled to do that IMHO. You should do so prudently and with good reason. Nor is he obliged not to tell you "I think your thing would be better if you didn't take this license." Nor are we really discussing PREJUDICES of the reader, we are discussing ways in which readers are not interested in seeing this portrayed which very often correspond with ways other people portray THEM. Portrayal is different from prejudice too, they are distinct. Again, nobody need be guilty of active prejudice to carry around and use its symbology. If you carry a sign, you should probably know what is written on it.Sure, we will leave it at I think you will find that your position is one that will be harder to defend over time. I suspect games are going to have to find ways to avoid offending a lot of people who have gotten very sick and tired of being on the receiving end, often for countless generations. It isn't really going to matter what conclusion you and I reach, we are small parts of the world.This is a Euhemerism. So, I literally read a whole article the other day about how 19th Century Euhemerism is tied together with various racist ideologies, and even relating it to things like Tolkien, etc. Maybe it was linked here, my memory can be pretty crappy. Anyway, it also ties in with the whitewashing of ideology about Rome pretty cleanly. I think there's a sad truth that European intellectuals over the last few centuries have tainted a lot of our cultural heritage with racist and other ideological baggage that we're now going to have to deal with.</blockquote>

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