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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 259468" data-attributes="member: 2020">Some good points there.  Let me comment on your points.       POSTED:  I'm just trying to remember the rules for the drow boots - were they 100% move silently? Even if they were, I'm pretty sure the usual rules for penalties due to armour still applied, though I could be wrong.  ANSWER  As far as I know, these Boots gave a 90% chance to Move Silently.  However, I was assuming the drow could Move Silently also as a natural ability, and through long training.  Also, these five drow girls know the territory, have scouted out every rock and crevace, and know just where to step, just how to move and maneuver.  POSTED   Okay, I'm not convinced that a 12th level party would just have torches. This is primarily from a practical point of view, since you'd have to carry a lot of torvhes to last you for a trek through the underdark. Anyway, I'd reckon there'd be lots of continual lights, magical weapons and items glowing, and suchlike. And btw, magic resistance means that the drow are notorious for hostile magics just sliding off them - but it doesn't help against invisibility, since that spell has not been cast at them, and they don't get a MR roll against it. Invisibility would work.  ANSWER  Agreed.  A 12th level party would not be carrying torches.  They would indeed be using the glow from magical weapons, have continual light stones, and the like.  But if they did, they could not be invisible, and the drow would see them (or, at least, they would see the light, and with Blindfighting ability could approximate well enough the location of each party member.)  If the party is Invisible, it is reasonable to assume they are using Infravision or a similar ability to see.  The drow would rely upon the sounds the party was making, to locate each one of them fairly precisely (the drow Blindfighting ability is rather legendary.)  If the party was Silenced but not Invisible, the drow would rely on sight - and with their Infravision they can see farther than any Infravision spell allows for.  And the drow are always expecting attack.  The moment they saw the party, they would react instantly.  If the party was both invisible and silenced (and could function that way as a party), they might surprise the drow.  However, the drow could also have Clairaudience.  Drow females can read surface thoughts (ask Drizzt Do'Urden!)  If they can read thoughts, they can sense thoughts.  It is quite likely one of them is doing just that, scrying for thoughts down the passageway.  Pity the poor adventurers who think themselves totally undetectable, when their every thought is known to the drow.  And Clairaudience would not work back against the drow, unless it penetrated their magic resistance.  It truly is a One Way Street here.  POSTED   Well, again, they don't get MR against Silence unless it was cast on an area that they were within.  Plus the fact that the party may well have someone with an extremely high move silently skill or boots of elvenkind.  ANSWER  See my comments above.  No magical silence or move silently skill is good  against drow Clairaudience.  Even if the drow are not using Clairaudience, they are attuned to hear the ... slightest ... sound (they could literally hear the breathing of the party members at 120 feet.)  POSTED  Yup, fair enough, after all the idea of an ambush is to hit your opponent when his spells are down - except that stoneskin lasts a *long* time, and if the party is expecting trouble then the mage may well have already cast it on himself.  ANSWER  In my experience, mages tend to be selfish with Stoneskin spells (which is, IMO, stupid.)  Even assuming a good team mage, however, he or she has only so many Stoneskins.  Even though they last a long time, marching through the Underdark takes a long time - a march could go on for an entire day.  There is a good chance the Stoneskins will run out before the party reaches the drow.  There is a good chance the poor mage will hold off on throwing Stoneskin, hoping he or she can do it in battle as needed.  However, assuming the party is Stoneskinned, the drow are at a disadvantage.  This is where they, if possible - seeing their bolts did not work - would start throwing Fireballs.  POSTED  Hide in shadows doesn't protect against detect magic.  ANSWER  Very true.  If I were a drow, I would hide in a crevace in the walls (if none existed, I would relocate to a place that had such crevaces.)  Or, I would hide behind stalagmites jutting up from the floor (again, if none existed, I would relocate to a place that had them.)  These would shield against Detection spells, which require line of sight.  I most certainly would do ... something ... to avoid Detect Magic.  Remember that all drow have this as an innate ability.  They would be able to see each other, in their magical armor, glowing like Christmas Trees.  They would practice at evading and hiding from such detection spells as a part of their normal training.  POSTED Yes, pretty likely if the theif is scouting out ahead, I'd say he's a goner, but then again he'd have to be pretty dumb to be ranging out ahead too far of the party if tyhey're in the underdark.  ANSWER  Unfortunately for the poor thief and his player, he or she doesn't always have much of a choice.  All too often the party leader says:  Go out there and scout, or else.  And the poor thief has to do it.  If there is not someone on point, the party is much more vulnerable to a surprise attack (as opposed to the unfortunate on point.)  The whole idea of someone on point is that he or she takes the assault, not the party, giving them time to react (and hopefully, the point person will survive the attack, or can be resurrected afterwards.)  If the whole party dies in the attack, then obviously nobody can be resurrected, whereas if they survive, the point person can be brought back.  POSTED  Why do the drow keep on winning the initiative? There's no reason for this as far as I can tel, since the party may include high-speed characters. In addition, a handful of 5d6 fireballs againts characters with good saves might well achieve very little actual damage.  ANSWER  The drow keep winning initiative because they have Dexterities of 17, 18, 19, and 20, whereas the party has Dexterities ranging from 10 to 18.  Remember that in 2nd Edition, characters do not gain stat points when going up in level.  Also, remember that - if you go by Gary Gygax's original conception - female drow had fantastically high stats on average (male drow were a bit worse off ...)  Also, these drow are in familiar terrain, and are comfortable in their surroundings.  The party is in strange and unfamiliar territory (if not downright oppressive to some of them.)  This would not affect initiative rolls per se, but it does make a difference in a fight.  POSTED  Sad but true fact, area effect spells in situations like this #(Where you don't know where the enemy or your allies are) are often a bad idea.  ANSWER  Agreed.    The cleric did this because he was desperate.  Most of his party was down, and all of the enemy were still standing.  Also, fear was a motivating factor.  Legendary, horrible accounts of what the drow did to prisoners was going through his mind, and it was obvious to him the drow were indeed trying to capture him and his party.  He struck as hard as he could to prevent that capture from happening.  POSTED  Except we're talking about a high-level cleric here, who probably promptly a)blasts more high level spells at them or b) really screws with their day by using protective spells, dispels, and neutralise poisons to bring the party back into the fight.  ANSWER  Unfortunately for the hapless cleric, he can only throw one spell at a time.  He is also stuck in a Viscid Glob.  Does he free himself from it with a spell?  Does he throw a spell to put one of the people in the party back into action?  Does he strike at the drow with a spell?  He has to do something, but he doesn't have long to make up his mind, and he knows he will only get one spell out before the drow return their attention to him.  What does he do?  POSTED    I dunno, lots of your scenario seems to rely on the characters being dumb and the drow winning the init all the time - both unlikely, especially when dealing with 12th level characters.  ANSWER  Players grow tired, along with their characters.  The drow do not have to do this alone - they can summon monsters to go harass and weaken the party (if monsters don't already block the tunnel between them and the party.)  The party fights battle after battle, pushing down the tunnel.  After a way, characters (and their players) stop being cautious, start letting down their vigil from sheer exhaustion, start making mistakes small and large.  The drow are fresh, have fought no battles today at all, and above all they know the penalty for failure in their mission - if not at the hands of their superiors, then at the hands of Lolth.  In other words, these girls are fanatical soldiers as well as effective soldiers, and it is all too likely they will face exhausted, battle-weary, and careless opponents.  Or, even more dangerous to the party, the drow may be facing overconfident adventurers, who think that in numbers and level they are safe from a Total Party Kill.  If someone dies, that someone can always be resurrected.  And Everyone Knows the drow won't kill the whole party (and Everyone Knows the DM won't kill the whole party, also.)  This is a fatal way to think, but adventurers and their players think this way, all too often.  If they survive their first encounter with the drow, they will - like a fighter pilot who survives his first aerial battle - never think in such ways again.  Their thinking will be forever altered, after their first fight with the drow.  If their thinking is not altered, the DM did not do his or her job very well, in my opinion.  Edena_of_Neith</blockquote>

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