NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9508898" data-attributes="member: 42582">"Plot point" is what the game calls it. I gave an example of how it can be used.You're the one who labelled it "meta", I assumed based on your knowledge of and experience with the system.The current approach requires (i) the player to declare their action, then (ii) the GM to call for a roll using a particular stat/skill (assuming they don't just declare success or failure), then (iii) the player to roll the dice and add the appropriate bonus read from their PC sheet, then (iv) the GM to compare that result to the DC that they look up (in their notes, on a table, perhaps make up on the spot).There are more steps there, and more back-and-forth, than the process I described for MHRP, in which the GM's description of the scene also rates the Scene Distinction, and which permits the player to then declare their action and have it be successful by spending a plot point. The player still has to consult their sheet (to see their Climbing rating), but don't need to roll anything, add anything, or consult with the GM about the resolution process.I personally know which one makes me think more about the fiction, and which one makes me think more about stuff that is extraneous to the fiction.Maybe? My experience is that players often look up their sheet to see their rating/bonus.But talking about those numbers, and performing calculations, isn't a way of being immersed in the fiction. It's a way of being immersed in arithmetic.The fact that there may be some sort of representational relationship doesn't change that.My point is this: once we all agree that "experiencing the things as the character" is metaphor - for the reason that we are none of us insane - then who do you think is third person authoring the character, as opposed to engaging in first person immersion in character?Because you, and [USER=10638]@Emirikol[/USER], keep posting that - as a matter of logic - I must be "dissociated" from my character when playing Burning Wheel, due to the presence of Persona and Fate, or due to the fact that some action declarations are not resolved by the GM consulting records of past decisions of authorship.And that is what I am denying. I've done a lot of RPGing. I know the difference between (say, and to adopt a somewhat arbitrary division into 3 options) (i) moving a "pawn" through a dungeon like White Plume Mountain, (ii) doing some superficial characterisation in a game where most of the events will happen as they happen regardless of the way I play my character (this could be anything from Castle Amber to a standard 2nd ed era railroad), and (iii) actually inhabiting a character and feeling genuine emotion as they confront choices and have meaningful things happen to them as a person.And the attempt to tell me that Burning Wheel, or Marvel Heroic RP, can't involve (iii) because of certain technical details of its resolution procedure is going to fail. I've played the games, I know what sort of RPing they permit.</blockquote>

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