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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Enchanter Tom" data-source="post: 6176658" data-attributes="member: 6749522">The problem with rogues is that they defy the traditional adventuring party.  When it first started out, D&D had three classes: the fighting man, the magic-user, and the cleric.  Each of these classes interacts with the game world relatively simply.  The rules for them revolve around combat and the characters as dungeon explorers.  Then comes along the rogue/thief class and he throws a fat wrench in the works.  Suddenly, there are specific rules for things like sneaking, listening at doors, picking pockets, and climbing walls.  The unstated implication of these specific rules is that those who lack these them can't do them, and given how poorly written, edited, and explained older editions of D&D were, the rules weren't much help.This introduces the question of how skills should function within the game.  Should skills be special abilities that are tied to class?  Should skills be training that anyone can gain access to?  Should skills be narrow or broad?  Should certain classes get a bonus to certain skills, or should they be entirely separate to allow concepts like wizard thieves and fighter scholars?My belief is that skills and class should be separate.  This should function in three ways.1. Basic tasks that come up in games frequently should be handled as general abilities that anyone can try.  Hiding, sneaking, listening, climbing, jumping, and so on.2. Specialized tasks that reasonably require training should be handled as archetypes.  You might have the thief archetype that offers skills like picking pockets and disarming traps, whereas the ranger archetype might offer wilderness survival.  These archetypes would be a part of the social/exploration pillars (to use 5e parlance, though you could apply this to any edition).3. Character classes should be how characters function as a combat role.  The rogue would no longer be the weird mix of thief and assassin; instead, you could have the assassin class who emphasizes sneak attacks and poisons, while the thief portion would be encompassed by the thief archetype.  This would allow for greater character diversity while simultaneously solving the issue of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" because you wouldn't have to deal with trying to write a game that handles a character whose defining abilities are "steals thing" into a game next to a cleric who can summon angels.</blockquote>

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