Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Older Editions
The problems with 3.5?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 4127059" data-attributes="member: 51942"><p>3.5 is very slow on-table, and it's hellish on the DM if you wish to prep accurately. </p><p></p><p>The DM's problem: Making a valid NPC is a lot of work - too much work, and similarly, monster abilities are all spelled out to a degree that makes subtle interactions likely and complex. The core premise of 3.5 is that a monster can only do what its statblock says, so the statblock includes rules for out-of-encounter abilities. That means that advancing monsters is very hard, but simultaneously, it's common for players to know all the monster abilities (since it's been around for quite a while, and since they need to for things like wild-shape). On the one hand we have a lot of player knowledge including out-of-encounter planning which can make this less fantastic, and on the other hand, we have a system that makes it hard for the DM to deviate from this. I spend multiples of the playing time prepping, and that's OK since it's sorta fun, but it would be more rewarding if I could achieve more in that time.</p><p></p><p>The on-table problem: the "simulation" of the in-game world becomes more and more complex as levels rise. Players gain more and more actions per round, and each action becomes more and more complex in and of itself. A first level character doesn't really have a full-attack action, since he can probably attack only once. A 20th level character can have many many attacks, a swift action, a number of free actions, and will likely have a bunch of "toggles" such as Dodge, Aura's, etc etc etc. All this means that the time it takes to play out one round becomes immense. Almost all combats in D&D are decided in less than 30 seconds (5 rounds), but they take a huge amount of time to play out. That incidentally also skews perceptions, since it means you focus lots of attention on combat, since that what you're likely to spend the majority of your time on, even if you enjoy role-playing, simply because it's so slow.</p><p></p><p>There are many factors which make combat slow down to a screeching halt. The increasing number of attacks is one. The increasing number of actions is another (immediate actions and delays/ready actions compound this issue). Even simple things like magic missile slow down if you down: everyone has one d4 die, but not necessarily 5. If you're adding 15d6 for a flame-strike at 15th level, that'll take longer than adding 5d6 for a fireball at 5th. Metamagic empower, which is generally more cost-effective, just makes things worse. Then you're got difficult abilities like grapple. There's the complex wildshape. Even in the new version, it's at least complicated since there's just so much to choose from and stat changes trickle down to so many different things.</p><p></p><p>There's more, but the above are easily fixable.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="eamon, post: 4127059, member: 51942"] 3.5 is very slow on-table, and it's hellish on the DM if you wish to prep accurately. The DM's problem: Making a valid NPC is a lot of work - too much work, and similarly, monster abilities are all spelled out to a degree that makes subtle interactions likely and complex. The core premise of 3.5 is that a monster can only do what its statblock says, so the statblock includes rules for out-of-encounter abilities. That means that advancing monsters is very hard, but simultaneously, it's common for players to know all the monster abilities (since it's been around for quite a while, and since they need to for things like wild-shape). On the one hand we have a lot of player knowledge including out-of-encounter planning which can make this less fantastic, and on the other hand, we have a system that makes it hard for the DM to deviate from this. I spend multiples of the playing time prepping, and that's OK since it's sorta fun, but it would be more rewarding if I could achieve more in that time. The on-table problem: the "simulation" of the in-game world becomes more and more complex as levels rise. Players gain more and more actions per round, and each action becomes more and more complex in and of itself. A first level character doesn't really have a full-attack action, since he can probably attack only once. A 20th level character can have many many attacks, a swift action, a number of free actions, and will likely have a bunch of "toggles" such as Dodge, Aura's, etc etc etc. All this means that the time it takes to play out one round becomes immense. Almost all combats in D&D are decided in less than 30 seconds (5 rounds), but they take a huge amount of time to play out. That incidentally also skews perceptions, since it means you focus lots of attention on combat, since that what you're likely to spend the majority of your time on, even if you enjoy role-playing, simply because it's so slow. There are many factors which make combat slow down to a screeching halt. The increasing number of attacks is one. The increasing number of actions is another (immediate actions and delays/ready actions compound this issue). Even simple things like magic missile slow down if you down: everyone has one d4 die, but not necessarily 5. If you're adding 15d6 for a flame-strike at 15th level, that'll take longer than adding 5d6 for a fireball at 5th. Metamagic empower, which is generally more cost-effective, just makes things worse. Then you're got difficult abilities like grapple. There's the complex wildshape. Even in the new version, it's at least complicated since there's just so much to choose from and stat changes trickle down to so many different things. There's more, but the above are easily fixable. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Older Editions
The problems with 3.5?
Top