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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Proper Use of Nudity in FRPG Art
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8495075" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>[USER=22779]@Hussar[/USER] (and everyone else) I do not tell you to leave. I do not <u>want</u> you to leave. You are all completely free to want whatever content you desire. And not purchase the content you dislike.</p><p></p><p>But it's a delicate balance. Of course I realize that women gamers might want supplements with no nudity (say, just focusing on one aspect of this complex discussion, chiefly because, well, read the thread title). <span style="font-size: 12px">(No "tasteless" nudity I might add, for whatever value of "tasteless" you prefer)</span></p><p></p><p>And it follows it is a good thing writers are nowadays much more likely to exclude content that excludes.</p><p></p><p>But sometimes the arguments spill over to a place which is not good for the community - where any content that does contain female nudity (again, just an example) is interpreted as attacking people.</p><p></p><p>We just can't go to the place where any nudity (yes, I am specifically including exploitative cheesecake now!) is interpreted as attacking female gamers, we just can't. It opens the door to a very bad place, where we give the power to everybody to call for censure based on the argument "this offends me". I desperately hope everybody reading this understands why this means the death of creativity.</p><p></p><p>Art must be allowed to be free. And sometimes offensive. It just isn't attacking you, no matter how strongly you feel it does. No, really, it isn't. <span style="font-size: 12px">(Except when it is - read me quoting myself below)</span></p><p></p><p>I'm going to quoute Hussar here - not because I want to start an attacking argument, but because he set up my point perfectly:</p><p></p><p>My point is that it is ok to be obnoxious or risqué <strong>full stop</strong>. Even if it bothers me. Even if it offends or aggravates me.</p><p></p><p>You are right, though. Yes, I am a white cis het male, so yes, it is probable far fewer things will come across as hurtful to me than some other parts of the demographic. But I ask you to consider my point to be valid despite my privilege.</p><p></p><p>Which brings me to a possibly related topic. Again, I realize writing "[something] must be free" will inevitably be misinterpreted, so I feel obligated to quote myself:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually reading my previous posts is a great idea, before you think I am saying something I really am not.</p><p></p><p>Now then, I am <u>not</u> accusing you for anything, Hussar. I might have been sloppy with my usage of "you" above, so let me assure you I am not saying anything about where on this line you fall, Hussar. I realize it is possible to construe my argumentation as strawmanning - so let me say it outright: nobody has called for all content to strip out "bad stuff". Not in this thread anyway. I am simply bringing up a discussion born out of consternation and frustration about how the ttrpg discourse is perilously close to capsizing in my opinion.</p><p></p><p>Yes, this is difficult to talk about. But the only way to successfully avoid a new morale panic is to have a dispassionate discussion. Thank you for your thoughts, Hussar.</p><p></p><p>Best regards, Zapp</p><p></p><p>PS. Here's one possibly constructive idea: before you (or I!) condemn any new roleplaying supplement, how about considering how it would have been received in the greater world of culture. That it, if it was a book or painting or movie (or play or poem etc).</p><p></p><p>If it glorifies white power or some other idiocy it would be rightly shunned and ignored completely. But what does not happen (thankfully) is that infrequent instances of "bad stuff" overtakes the entire reception the way it can do in our hobby, with entire threads devoted to picking the content apart. We can have great (or at least popular) art that includes nudity, even of the gratuitous exploitative kind, just to pick one example. (Example again not random because thread title)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8495075, member: 12731"] [USER=22779]@Hussar[/USER] (and everyone else) I do not tell you to leave. I do not [U]want[/U] you to leave. You are all completely free to want whatever content you desire. And not purchase the content you dislike. But it's a delicate balance. Of course I realize that women gamers might want supplements with no nudity (say, just focusing on one aspect of this complex discussion, chiefly because, well, read the thread title). [SIZE=3](No "tasteless" nudity I might add, for whatever value of "tasteless" you prefer)[/SIZE] And it follows it is a good thing writers are nowadays much more likely to exclude content that excludes. But sometimes the arguments spill over to a place which is not good for the community - where any content that does contain female nudity (again, just an example) is interpreted as attacking people. We just can't go to the place where any nudity (yes, I am specifically including exploitative cheesecake now!) is interpreted as attacking female gamers, we just can't. It opens the door to a very bad place, where we give the power to everybody to call for censure based on the argument "this offends me". I desperately hope everybody reading this understands why this means the death of creativity. Art must be allowed to be free. And sometimes offensive. It just isn't attacking you, no matter how strongly you feel it does. No, really, it isn't. [SIZE=3](Except when it is - read me quoting myself below)[/SIZE] I'm going to quoute Hussar here - not because I want to start an attacking argument, but because he set up my point perfectly: My point is that it is ok to be obnoxious or risqué [B]full stop[/B]. Even if it bothers me. Even if it offends or aggravates me. You are right, though. Yes, I am a white cis het male, so yes, it is probable far fewer things will come across as hurtful to me than some other parts of the demographic. But I ask you to consider my point to be valid despite my privilege. Which brings me to a possibly related topic. Again, I realize writing "[something] must be free" will inevitably be misinterpreted, so I feel obligated to quote myself: Actually reading my previous posts is a great idea, before you think I am saying something I really am not. Now then, I am [U]not[/U] accusing you for anything, Hussar. I might have been sloppy with my usage of "you" above, so let me assure you I am not saying anything about where on this line you fall, Hussar. I realize it is possible to construe my argumentation as strawmanning - so let me say it outright: nobody has called for all content to strip out "bad stuff". Not in this thread anyway. I am simply bringing up a discussion born out of consternation and frustration about how the ttrpg discourse is perilously close to capsizing in my opinion. Yes, this is difficult to talk about. But the only way to successfully avoid a new morale panic is to have a dispassionate discussion. Thank you for your thoughts, Hussar. Best regards, Zapp PS. Here's one possibly constructive idea: before you (or I!) condemn any new roleplaying supplement, how about considering how it would have been received in the greater world of culture. That it, if it was a book or painting or movie (or play or poem etc). If it glorifies white power or some other idiocy it would be rightly shunned and ignored completely. But what does not happen (thankfully) is that infrequent instances of "bad stuff" overtakes the entire reception the way it can do in our hobby, with entire threads devoted to picking the content apart. We can have great (or at least popular) art that includes nudity, even of the gratuitous exploitative kind, just to pick one example. (Example again not random because thread title) [/QUOTE]
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