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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 288886" data-attributes="member: 3051">The PHB Paladin has a strong list of abilities.  The balancing factor is that you have to play within a strict LG Code of Conduct.  It's not just LG, it's EXTREMELY LG, reinforced by the "do it or else!" clause about losing your powers.  For this discussion to work, we have to assume that the PHB class is balanced.I've got four Paladin subclasses.  Each has a list of abilities comparable to the PHB Paladin, so no change there.  Each has a strict code of conduct corresponding to their alignment, and that's the key: the CG code of conduct is different than the LG one, but it's no less strict.  The CE one is really nasty, involving lots of death and the destruction of government/society.Basically, they should be REALLY strict.  Normally a LG and a CG will group together just fine since they at least agree on the Good part.  A Guardian (LG) and a Crusader (CG) should believe so strongly in their respective alignments that they can't work together for anything less than the end of the world.  A Crusader will believe so strongly in Chaos that he'll actively try to "bring true freedom to the masses" (i.e., get rid of strict governments).I don't believe that the specific alignment should matter; the challenge of a Paladin is in how strictly he follows the alignment he's chosen.  Yes, a player will be able to find a one more suited to their character, but I think that's a GOOD thing.  If you don't give them an option like this, you end up with these possibilities:A> They play a Paladin anyway but don't follow the alignment well, in which case you either strip them of their powers (end of character) or let them get away with it (ruins campaign).B> They play a Fighter/Cleric hybrid until they qualify for one of the Prestige Classes that gives these abilities (see below) and then you're left with a big balance headache.  If you don't allow the Prestige Classes, it gets even worse.C> They drop the whole concept.Pretty much sucks no matter which way it ends up.Look at Prestige Classes.  In the DMG we have the Blackguard, which gives the special abilities of the Paladin to any Evil character.  But, it has a few flaws:> Weak spellcasting> No real code of conduct> Too many "required" high statsand the whole "Fallen Paladin" thing has its own balance headaches, especially the part about swapping levels.Then, in one of the splatbooks is a Prestige Class (Liberator?) that gives Paladin abilities to CG people.With access to those Prestige Classes, people WILL end up with a CG/LE/CE character with Paladin abilities.  The question is, will it be handled in a way that makes sense, or will they end up min/maxxing their classes to get to a Prestige Class faster?  I dislike adding tons of Prestige Classes in general, because people eventually find ways to munchkin their way through five or six of them to get all kinds of special abilities.  For me, the ideal system is one where you take one or two normal classes, and one Prestige Class at the end of your career.(You ought to see the Halfling Barbarian/Bard/Ranger/Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Shadow Dancer/Blackguard/Assassin (12 levels total) I made to torment my players.  I named him Tattoo.  Practically impossible to kill, and THAT was before I had access to the class books.)To top it all off, there's an immersiveness problem, in the core books: Good has more options than Evil.  You simply can't find a Blackguard with character level less than about 8, so in the core rules you don't have to worry about enemies with these abilities until you're high level, while they have to worry about Paladins from the start.If this was a low-magic campaign then it'd be okay to make Paladin, Ranger, etc. into Prestige Classes and have them only show up at high levels, but if you're playing in a world where the gods are granting magic all over the place, then both sides need to be able to have divine warriors at their disposal from the start.Oh well, I'm going on vacation so I won't be able to finish this debate.  But hey, if you've got to this point and we still don't agree, then there's not much else to say.</blockquote>

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