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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9760715" data-attributes="member: 6799660">There was some feat, spell, or one-level dip that let you sneak attack creatures of a type otherwise immune*. But up until that came out and if you decided to get it (so, yeah, the whole campaign was built around undead or the like) you would be rocking UMD and some wand that was beneficial to the party. Or just resign yourself to being the character that gets brought out when there's a skill roll to be made (so not that far from your TSR-era role). *not unlike the multiple ways for fighter-types to get full attacks after more than 5' movement. That was the ethos: make a limitation, then add ways around it.Note, it's pretty easy to see the parallels between this design ethos and this thread (theoretically then further taken to some action in future game/edition design). Someone on the design team noted that undead don't have functioning anatomy and decided 'it'd just make sense*' if precision attacks were ineffective on undead. Never mind the selectivity of implementing 'realism' and the downstream consequences to individual class choices. If we were to do so with rapiers and dragons (in house rule or hypothetical edition X), it wouldn't necessarily mean rapiers couldn't be used, but I hope the game is then set up for weapon switch hitting (hyper-specialization not otherwise optimal, if magic weapons are required they are common enough to have two, etc.). *excepting that two iconic forms of undead--zombies and vampires--are in fact traditionally/thematically defeated by a weapon to a specific point of their anatomy.Undead in 3e had a number of these. The whole no Con score (and bonus points) for undead and constructs was another big 'it just makes sense'/major consequences issue. In this case, it is an issue with the roles undead play. Some (like ghosts, specters, etc.) are wispy and ephemeral (but likely immune to many weapons) and it is okay if they have moderate hit points. Others (liches) are undead mages, so a HD (d12) that averages to the same as a wizard with an 18 Con is likewise reasonable. But deathknights and zombies (iconically slow and clumsy but unstoppable meat sacks) really need lots and lots of HP to fill their roles. Suddenly you got zombies with 3-4 HD per CR, and they, not their vampire or lich master, are the un-turnable threat (because turning is still based on creature HD).</blockquote>

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