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The Real problem with 3e D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 3385487" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Perhaps not memorized. That's true. But read at least. And known well enough that he or she doesn't have to look it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. Again, since we're talking about first level characters, we're not talking about a huge amount of information. Even the fighter doesn't really have to know about the combat maneuvers. </p><p></p><p>I play with fairly experienced gamers and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen them initiate a grapple. In 6 years of 3e I don't think I've ever seen a player try a disarm or a sunder. I'm sure there are people who do so, but, IME, it's pretty rare. </p><p></p><p>Granted, the DM probably starts grapples fairly often. There's an awful lot of critters out there with improved grab. But, the only thing the player really needs to know is BAB+STR+Size mods. In other words, make a standard attack without any mods other than Str. This isn't hard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True. But, again, we're talking about new players. While I would never tell someone not to take a given class, there is the art of gently steering someone in a simpler direction. Perhaps sorc instead of wiz. Avoiding clerics maybe. And since almost no one wants to play a cleric anyway, that's usually not a problem. Of the eleven base classes, only 4 get full spell progression. That still leaves 7 other classes to fiddle with until they get the rules a little better under control.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The simple answer is, you shouldn't. I've never played in a game where anyone is dictating feats to other players. I would squash any of my players who tried it. Suggesting is fine, but, "ensuring" an optimal party? I don't think so. </p><p></p><p>Th problem I see here though is the assumption that you <u>need</u> an optimal party. Granted, you need a certain level of proficiency in a given party. A party of all bards might be fun, but, isn't going to be terribly effective in many situations. There is a need for balance, I guess is what I'm saying. But, that's always been true in D&D. It's set up that way. 3 fighters, cleric, wizard, thief has been the staple party for a very, very long time.</p><p></p><p>But, do you really need every character in a party to be perfectly optimized to succeed? I don't think so. The bog standard characters do pretty well in most situations. That's why they are standard. A power attack barbarian is pretty effective. The blaster wizard works. The thief with good hide and move silently is pretty good.</p><p></p><p>It has been mentioned earlier. If you find the level of complexity too much in your game, then limit what is available. STOP BUYING BOOKS. Or at least, stop using every book. Stick to core plus a couple of others. Stick to the complexity level you are comfortable with and go from there. If the cleric having a bazillion spells from the Spell Compendium blows your mind, then don't use that book. </p><p></p><p>I find a fair bit of irony in all this. When 3e first came out, critics complained about how they had "dumbed down" the rules and that it was too simplistic. Now the worm has turned and the critics talk about how it's too complicated. The only reason the game has become so complicated is because people let it become so. Limit the options to what you are comfortable with and life becomes so much easier.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 3385487, member: 22779"] Perhaps not memorized. That's true. But read at least. And known well enough that he or she doesn't have to look it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. Again, since we're talking about first level characters, we're not talking about a huge amount of information. Even the fighter doesn't really have to know about the combat maneuvers. I play with fairly experienced gamers and I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen them initiate a grapple. In 6 years of 3e I don't think I've ever seen a player try a disarm or a sunder. I'm sure there are people who do so, but, IME, it's pretty rare. Granted, the DM probably starts grapples fairly often. There's an awful lot of critters out there with improved grab. But, the only thing the player really needs to know is BAB+STR+Size mods. In other words, make a standard attack without any mods other than Str. This isn't hard. True. But, again, we're talking about new players. While I would never tell someone not to take a given class, there is the art of gently steering someone in a simpler direction. Perhaps sorc instead of wiz. Avoiding clerics maybe. And since almost no one wants to play a cleric anyway, that's usually not a problem. Of the eleven base classes, only 4 get full spell progression. That still leaves 7 other classes to fiddle with until they get the rules a little better under control. The simple answer is, you shouldn't. I've never played in a game where anyone is dictating feats to other players. I would squash any of my players who tried it. Suggesting is fine, but, "ensuring" an optimal party? I don't think so. Th problem I see here though is the assumption that you [u]need[/u] an optimal party. Granted, you need a certain level of proficiency in a given party. A party of all bards might be fun, but, isn't going to be terribly effective in many situations. There is a need for balance, I guess is what I'm saying. But, that's always been true in D&D. It's set up that way. 3 fighters, cleric, wizard, thief has been the staple party for a very, very long time. But, do you really need every character in a party to be perfectly optimized to succeed? I don't think so. The bog standard characters do pretty well in most situations. That's why they are standard. A power attack barbarian is pretty effective. The blaster wizard works. The thief with good hide and move silently is pretty good. It has been mentioned earlier. If you find the level of complexity too much in your game, then limit what is available. STOP BUYING BOOKS. Or at least, stop using every book. Stick to core plus a couple of others. Stick to the complexity level you are comfortable with and go from there. If the cleric having a bazillion spells from the Spell Compendium blows your mind, then don't use that book. I find a fair bit of irony in all this. When 3e first came out, critics complained about how they had "dumbed down" the rules and that it was too simplistic. Now the worm has turned and the critics talk about how it's too complicated. The only reason the game has become so complicated is because people let it become so. Limit the options to what you are comfortable with and life becomes so much easier. [/QUOTE]
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