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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5427777" data-attributes="member: 957">I completely disagree.Obviously people's live change and that has an impact.&nbsp; But that doesn't lead to this conclusion.First, the implication that 4E enjoyment is tied to making &quot;the conscious effort to give creedence to the story&quot; is bogus.&nbsp; It don't doubt that it is true for 4E fans.&nbsp; But, putting it expressly under the 4E column as specifically contrasted to 3E is just a fully flawed assessment of 3E fans.&nbsp; I've made my point many times before and I don't have issues with supporting the story; be it in regard to 4E or any system.&nbsp; But when 4E says that my wizard gets better at climbing as he levels, that is the system imposing itself on the story, not simply failing to remind you of a story.&nbsp; When 4E says that challenge level defines attacks, damage, defenses much more than what the challenge in question is, that is the system imposing itself on the story, not simply failing to remind you of a story.&nbsp; Over and over the system is about the game balance and mechanics coming first.&nbsp; Andy Collins strongly endorsed and praised this as a difference between 4E and other editions saying &quot;. In a lot of editions of the game, classes compared to new classes were designed by [first] imagining what could exist in the D&amp;D world, and now I assign the mechanics that make that feel realistic and then I’m done&quot; and that for 4E class design the key is instead &quot;why is this game piece different than another game piece and why do I want to play it instead another game piece.&quot;&nbsp; You can absolutely role play anything in 4E that you can in any other system.&nbsp; But, the presumption of 4E is quite different than most any other system that I have played in that it presumes the roleplay will follow the path assigned by the mechanics rather than the other way around.I believe that the OP doesn't get the non-4E fan perspective on this.It is also wrong about 3E fans finding more time or making more time.&nbsp; I have less game time than I did 10 years ago.&nbsp; I play less and I prep less.&nbsp; But the time I spend doing it is pretty much the same as it was when I had more.&nbsp; I just enjoy 15 minutes at a time instead of 2 hours at a time.&nbsp; It has nothing to do with shortcuts or cutting time out of other parts of my life.Both points are wrong.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5427777, member: 957"] I completely disagree. Obviously people's live change and that has an impact. But that doesn't lead to this conclusion. First, the implication that 4E enjoyment is tied to making "the conscious effort to give creedence to the story" is bogus. It don't doubt that it is true for 4E fans. But, putting it expressly under the 4E column as specifically contrasted to 3E is just a fully flawed assessment of 3E fans. I've made my point many times before and I don't have issues with supporting the story; be it in regard to 4E or any system. But when 4E says that my wizard gets better at climbing as he levels, that is the system imposing itself on the story, not simply failing to remind you of a story. When 4E says that challenge level defines attacks, damage, defenses much more than what the challenge in question is, that is the system imposing itself on the story, not simply failing to remind you of a story. Over and over the system is about the game balance and mechanics coming first. Andy Collins strongly endorsed and praised this as a difference between 4E and other editions saying ". In a lot of editions of the game, classes compared to new classes were designed by [first] imagining what could exist in the D&D world, and now I assign the mechanics that make that feel realistic and then I’m done" and that for 4E class design the key is instead "why is this game piece different than another game piece and why do I want to play it instead another game piece." You can absolutely role play anything in 4E that you can in any other system. But, the presumption of 4E is quite different than most any other system that I have played in that it presumes the roleplay will follow the path assigned by the mechanics rather than the other way around. I believe that the OP doesn't get the non-4E fan perspective on this. It is also wrong about 3E fans finding more time or making more time. I have less game time than I did 10 years ago. I play less and I prep less. But the time I spend doing it is pretty much the same as it was when I had more. I just enjoy 15 minutes at a time instead of 2 hours at a time. It has nothing to do with shortcuts or cutting time out of other parts of my life. Both points are wrong. [/QUOTE]

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