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<blockquote data-quote="ProfessorCirno" data-source="post: 5431515" data-attributes="member: 65637">Another thread where I find it difficult to respond because the attacks on 4e have no basis in, well, 4e.When I and so many others point out flaws in 3.x, it's a game we played for years.&nbsp; Flaws we saw first hand.But so many of the &quot;flaws&quot; I see pointed out in 4e don't exist, and I think it's because so many people haven't played 4e but wrote it off immediately.3.x - nor any edition of D&amp;D - were not &quot;simulationist&quot; games.&nbsp; The economy makes no sense.&nbsp; HP makes no sense.&nbsp; The way magic interacts with 90% of the settings make no sense.&nbsp; The way leveling up is done makes no sense.&nbsp; It is a game of a large multitude of abstractions, and at no point did the developers of any of the games sit down and think &quot;let's try to simulate actually living in a medieval world.&quot;Healing surges are not a bigger abstract, they are a different abstract.&nbsp; Previously in D&amp;D, health had no meaning.&nbsp; Literally!&nbsp; 1HP, 3,000HP, there was no difference.&nbsp; HP was entirely binary - Either you had HP, or you had no HP.&nbsp; There were no broken bones.&nbsp; No severed limbs.&nbsp; Regenerate was always the most laughable spell because there was nothing for severing limbs.&nbsp; It was a spell to fix a condition that didn't exist!Surges are equally an abstract, but a different one, not a &quot;bigger&quot; or &quot;worse&quot; one.&nbsp; They cover things like fatigue where HP never did.&nbsp; They show a character's slow degradation where HP as well never did.&nbsp; People keep talking about surges magically making people regenerate, but somehow miss that people in 3e either magically didn't die after being stabbed fifty times or having a dragon roast them alive, or they - here it comes - shrugged it off as an abstract.&nbsp; They didn't sweat the small stuff.If each attack is a physical wound, then past level 3 or 4, D&amp;D in all editions breaks down.&nbsp; Ok, my fighter is run through three times.&nbsp; It's cool, I suffer no penalties or anything, I'm still fighting at peak form.As for the snubbing of movies, come on.&nbsp; D&amp;D is not some fantastic work of literary genius.&nbsp; It was formed from terrible 70's pulp with godawful prose and even worse 70's movies and TV shows.&nbsp; The monk didn't come about because Gygax wanted a complex examination of eastern aesthetics and the differences between Buddhism and greek mythology, he did it because he really liked Kung Fu.&nbsp; Paladins aren't in the game because he wanted a rich tapestry of morality and how it plays out in a medieval society, it's there because valiant knights in shining armor are cool.&nbsp; D&amp;D has always been a mix of nerd culture and &quot;gamist&quot; fun.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ProfessorCirno, post: 5431515, member: 65637"] Another thread where I find it difficult to respond because the attacks on 4e have no basis in, well, 4e. When I and so many others point out flaws in 3.x, it's a game we played for [I]years[/I]. Flaws we saw first hand. But so many of the "flaws" I see pointed out in 4e don't exist, and I think it's because so many people haven't played 4e but wrote it off immediately. 3.x - nor any edition of D&D - were not "simulationist" games. The economy makes no sense. HP makes no sense. The way magic interacts with 90% of the settings make no sense. The way leveling up is done makes no sense. It is a game of a large multitude of abstractions, and at no point did the developers of any of the games sit down and think "let's try to simulate actually living in a medieval world." Healing surges are not a [B]bigger[/B] abstract, they are a [B]different [/B]abstract. Previously in D&D, health had no meaning. Literally! 1HP, 3,000HP, there was no difference. HP was entirely [I]binary[/I] - Either you had HP, or you had no HP. There were no broken bones. No severed limbs. Regenerate was always the most laughable spell because there was nothing for severing limbs. It was a spell to fix a condition that didn't exist! Surges are equally an abstract, but a different one, not a "bigger" or "worse" one. They cover things like fatigue where HP never did. They show a character's slow degradation where HP as well never did. People keep talking about surges magically making people regenerate, but somehow miss that people in 3e either magically didn't die after being stabbed fifty times or having a dragon roast them alive, or they - here it comes - shrugged it off as an abstract. They didn't sweat the small stuff. If each attack is a physical wound, then past level 3 or 4, D&D in [I]all[/I] editions breaks down. Ok, my fighter is run through three times. It's cool, I suffer no penalties or anything, I'm still fighting at peak form. As for the snubbing of movies, come on. D&D is not some fantastic work of literary genius. It was formed from terrible 70's pulp with godawful prose and even worse 70's movies and TV shows. The monk didn't come about because Gygax wanted a complex examination of eastern aesthetics and the differences between Buddhism and greek mythology, he did it because he really liked Kung Fu. Paladins aren't in the game because he wanted a rich tapestry of morality and how it plays out in a medieval society, it's there because valiant knights in shining armor are cool. D&D has always been a mix of nerd culture and "gamist" fun. [/QUOTE]

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