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<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5435680" data-attributes="member: 80487">I think you are probably accurate in terms of the designers' intent, and definitely on the mark with what I have seen in actual play.It is, to be sure, not an absolute binary difference but rather (as are most phenomena in this world that is not the realm of Platonic Forms) a matter of degree. We can count on certain parties to make much of that, maybe more even than it actually means to them.It's not much of a role-playing game, to my mind, just to make up stories after the fact about results in an abstract game of dice or cards. It's not much of a game at all when all I get to do is listen to the DM tell me what my character does.What 4e has done is put the cart very prominently before the horse. &quot;Dice first, ask questions later (if ever)&quot; is just plain backwards. &quot;Skill challenges&quot; don't challenge skill; they challenge one's affection for arbitrarily interminable dice-tossing and effectively meaningless blather. A computer can do that drudgery, so what am I as a 'player' here for?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 5435680, member: 80487"] I think you are probably accurate in terms of the designers' intent, and definitely on the mark with what I have seen in actual play. It is, to be sure, not an absolute binary difference but rather (as are most phenomena in this world that is not the realm of Platonic Forms) a matter of degree. We can count on certain parties to make much of that, maybe more even than it actually means to them. It's not much of a [i]role-playing game[/i], to my mind, just to make up stories after the fact about results in an abstract game of dice or cards. It's not much of a [i]game[/i] at all when all I get to do is listen to the DM tell me what my character does. What 4e has done is put the cart very prominently before the horse. "Dice first, ask questions later (if ever)" is just plain backwards. "Skill challenges" don't challenge skill; they challenge one's affection for arbitrarily interminable dice-tossing and effectively meaningless blather. A computer can do that drudgery, so what am I as a 'player' here for? [/QUOTE]

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