Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5436229" data-attributes="member: 22779">This is either very deep or utter tosh, and I'm not sure which.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />If you choose to percieve a message in any way other than what the originator intended, then you will have a failure to communicate.  You can self delude yourself that every side of the Rubics cube is the same color, but, it's still not going to actually solve the puzzle.Then again, you're operating from a definition of role playing game that I just can't quite grok to be honest.  It's so reductionist that I find it very difficult to understand how you can call it role playing anymore.I'm not entirely sure I agree with that.  The primary difference that I see between 3e and 4e in this case is that in 4e, the mechanics don't dictate a specific interpretation of how the event was resolved.  Going back to the spoon discussion, a reasonable reading of the 3e Open Locks skill means that if I try to use that skill, I'm pulling out a tool and inserting it somehow into the lock and trying to trip the tumblers.4e doesn't really care.  It just says you use this skill to open locks.  The how is left entirely to the player.  That's what it means when mechanics are divorced from narrative.  Come and Get It says that X happens.  How it happens is entirely up to the player.WOTC's new Fortune Cards are a great example here.  There's no flavour text whatsoever on the cards.  None.  Play the card, get a mechanical bonus.  It's up to the player to narrate how that is happening.  3e would generally take a different approach and have flavour text that would be broadly applicable.Again, there's strengths and weaknesses to both approaches.To me, the difference is in the source of the narration.  In 3e, the mechanics largely dictate the narration - use X skill, use X ability, and Y happens and  Y is very often specifically defined by the rules.  A 3e bard can fascinate certain creatures using his perform skill and that is pre-determined at character generation.  If you take Perform (Lute), then every one of your bardic abilities must use the lute (or at least the ones that require perform checks).4e relies on the player to make narration that is acceptable to that table and largely doesn't dictate those kinds of limitations.  A character could get a second wind by shaking off his wounds, he could snatch a vulture out of the air with his teeth and drink its blood.  Whatever works at the table.But, break that down step by step.  The player announces that he wants to jump over the pit, as an example.  What has happened in game at that point?  Has the character moved?  Has the character actually taken any action?I don't think so actually.  The character hasn't done anything.  In D&D, at least, until such time as that action is resolved, you cannot actually narrate anything.Sufficiently Advanced actually contains this mechanics.  You can spend a point (and the name of which eludes me at the moment) and then narrate the successful resolution of any action.  It might cost you down the road with penalties, but, for this specific event, you can choose to narrate it any way you see fit.But, that's the point, mechanical resolution has been determined - spending the point grants you that ability.3:16 Carnage Beyond the Stars has a similar mechanic where you can create a flashback scene that explains how you either win the current event or lose the current event on your own terms.  If you choose to win, then fine, you win.  If you choose to lose, you remove yourself from that event in any way you see fit, so long as it actually counts as a loss - you could choose to be captured by the enemy for example, instead of being eaten by them.But, again, the event has been resolved.  You either have won or lost by spending the appropriate resource.Until such time as a mechanically determined event is resolved in some manner, it cannot be narrated.Note, for events that are not mechanically determined, you can narrate them any way you want, so long as the table is happy.  If I narrate that my character tap dances up to the orc, instead of walking or whatever, if the table is groovy with that, then no worries.  The mechanics couldn't care less since movement in combat is not (usually anyway) a mechanically determined event.</blockquote>

Verification