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<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5436601" data-attributes="member: 80487">Whereas in a 4e &quot;skill challenge&quot; it's:1) DM decides goal and context2) DM decides level and complexity3) DM decides what skill numbers are applicable, with what +/- factors4) DM decides on other conditions5) DM decides on consequences6) Players roll dice and make up excuses for whyNow, I know that the formalism is a lot of fun for you and yours, and I wish you only more fun from it. However, for me it is dreadful. It pretty much sticks a knife in the guts of why I play RPGs in the first place, and then takes way too much time twisting the blade.It's not at all a matter of having &quot;skill rolls&quot; in a game. We've had those since the 1970s, and Traveller and RuneQuest used the same basic method of play as D&amp;D and T&amp;T.What makes it a &quot;4e skill challenge encounter&quot; in the first place is the pre-determined structure. There must be at least X number of dice rolls, up to so many successes or failures, to the prescribed DCs. No shortcuts around that are kosher, because rolling the dice -- pretty darned precisely just that -- is how you 'earn' the experience points.(Even if you're so sick of it that you will gladly give up the XP in order to have a chance to try to get the in-game-world objective by implementing your own plan, the DM may be too attached to the gadgetry he's worked to build, or too inflexible to depart from a published scenario.)It's the ne plus ultra of the way 3e turned wandering monsters from strategic problem into &quot;XP on the hoof&quot;. The drunkard's walk may be less than optimal, but now it's not too bad either. If you actually play smart enough to avoid trouble, you get stiffed XP for &quot;not addressing the challenge&quot;. The challenge is no longer to secure an objective but rather to get maximally fouled up along the way.It's one thing to consider things that are likely to come up, and to have notes on methods to deal with them. Every RPG &quot;rule&quot; book ever published, and many a magazine, has been largely devoted to providing examples of such things.It's quite another thing to reduce player choice to such an insignificant afterthought as 4e &quot;skill challenges&quot; -- and the &quot;assumption that everyone is searching everything all the time&quot; -- do in my experience.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 5436601, member: 80487"] Whereas in a 4e "skill challenge" it's: 1) DM decides goal and context 2) DM decides level and complexity 3) DM decides what skill numbers are applicable, with what +/- factors 4) DM decides on other conditions 5) DM decides on consequences 6) Players roll dice and make up excuses for why Now, I know that the formalism is a lot of fun for you and yours, and I wish you only more fun from it. However, for me it is dreadful. It pretty much sticks a knife in the guts of why I play RPGs in the first place, and then takes way too much time twisting the blade. It's not at all a matter of having "skill rolls" in a game. We've had those since the 1970s, and Traveller and RuneQuest used the same basic method of play as D&D and T&T. What [i]makes it[/i] a "4e skill challenge encounter" in the first place is the pre-determined structure. There [i]must[/i] be at least X number of dice rolls, up to so many successes or failures, to the prescribed DCs. No shortcuts around that are kosher, because rolling the dice -- pretty darned precisely just that -- is how you 'earn' the experience points. (Even if you're so sick of it that you will gladly give up the XP in order to have a chance to try to get the in-game-world objective by implementing your own plan, the DM may be too attached to the gadgetry he's worked to build, or too inflexible to depart from a published scenario.) It's the [i]ne plus ultra[/i] of the way 3e turned wandering monsters from strategic problem into "XP on the hoof". The drunkard's walk may be less than optimal, but now it's not too bad either. If you actually play smart enough to avoid trouble, you get stiffed XP for "not addressing the challenge". The challenge is no longer to secure an objective but rather to get maximally fouled up along the way. It's one thing to consider things that are likely to come up, and to have notes on methods to deal with them. Every RPG "rule" book ever published, and many a magazine, has been largely devoted to providing examples of such things. It's quite another thing to reduce player choice to such an insignificant afterthought as 4e "skill challenges" -- and the "assumption that everyone is searching everything all the time" -- do in my experience. [/QUOTE]

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