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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5436784" data-attributes="member: 22779">That's not entirely true though.  Let's not forget that you chose to take the power that pushes a target first off.  Secondly, you chose to use that power at this specific time, when you had at least half a dozen other choices you could have made, many of which will not include forced movement.Add to that, forced movement powers are generally controller and defender powers (although not always).  If you don't want to push people, don't take those type of classes.  It's not like you are force by the mechanics to use a specific power at a specific time.  The player had the choice to have that power in the first place and to use that power at this specific time.On the example of Bull Rush, I believe that Shift is not forced movement.  You don't have to shift into the empty square if you choose not to.  From the Glossary:Please don't take rules advice from people who have never played a game.  Funny how I get jumped up and down and screamed at if I make the slightest deviation from AD&D rules, but, the same people who get all huffy when I might not have the exact wording correct on an AD&D rule have no problem with people completely misrepresenting editions they don't like.  Well, of course the narrative has to agree with what happened.  That's always true.  But, it's not different really than any other edition.A bard chooses Perform Lute at 1st level.  Every single time he uses a bard class ability that requires perform he MUST narrate that as using a lute.  He has no choice, barring training in a second instrument I suppose, in which case he is now mandated by the rules to choose between his two chosen instruments.But, his narration is still dictated by the mechanics.  In 4e, the player chooses a given power.  When that power is used, he can narrate it in any fashion that is acceptable to the table.  He is not forced to narrate it in one specific way.But, again, narration of mechanically determined events is always determined by the mechanics.  You have no choice there, beyond initiating the action.  I'm not really sure what you're arguing to be honest.  If the mechanics are divorced from the narrative, then you are free to narrate the event in any way you see fit.  If the mechanics are tied to the narrative, then the narrative is directed by the mechanics.  Are you trying to say that 4e mechanics are tied to specific narratives?There's good an bad in both approaches really.  In 3e, you get internally consistent narratives.  The bard plays his lute to make magic happen.  Magic happens when he plays his lute.  That's consistent.  Magic doesn't happen when he plays the drum or sings.  Again, totally consistent.But, it is trading increased consistency with decreased freedom.  The bard cannot play the drums to have his bard powers work.  The bard can't sing or recite poetry or tell a joke.  He can only play the lute.  ((Or whatever his Perform skill is in))4e trades consistency for more freedom.  The bard can make magic happen when he plays music, tells a joke, or recites poetry.  The wizard can make magic happen with a wand, or an orb or nothing at all.  The thief can open locks with picks or chutzpah.It's certainly less consistent.  Totally agree there.  And it runs the danger of being so inconsistent to be unbelievable which detracts from the game.Again, and I actually agree with you on this, it's about catering to specific tastes.   3e creates a specific sort of world.  That world is mechanically defined to a very large degree.  Granted, given the MASSIVE amount of 3e material, that definition can vary a whole pile from one campaign to another.  A 4e world is far less mechanically defined.  It derives its consistency from the players, rather than the DM.  Depending on the players and the group, that can be very good or very bad.</blockquote>

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