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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8402514" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I never claimed it was the only trope. So since we both agree that three versions exist ("a smaller force of powerful good beings against a much larger force of evil weaker beings", "A set of equally matched forces in power and number", "A much more numerous but good force against a far more powerful yet smaller number evil force") I don't think that trying to say that one or the other needs to be the case brings any merit. Especially since DnD has the Gods of Good outnumbered both by a massive force of weaker evils (demons and Devils), and beset by equally powerful yet also more numerous forces (evil gods, because there are a lot of them) AND facing a limited number of even more powerful beings (Great Old Ones) that they have mixed far too much into the same basket. I also don't know what "solution" you are talking about in regards to Gygax. When Gygax was writing, these things weren't set in stone and so weren't a problem. In fact, mortal heroes could kill gods as easily as they could anything else and it wasn't until much later that the stratification started happening. Unless I've misremembered something, but if you have a potential solution to this issue, then bringing it up would be appreciated, instead of making these sort of comments. Because, honestly, I see no value in Evil Gods, the only way I can see to keep them and keep them more powerful than the other evil beings would be to make far more interesting enemies (orcus, Graz'zt, ect) their minions. Which is a terrible solution I think.Having Demons try to kill the gods, yet bound by the laws of the gods is kind of silly, don't you think? Ao is... honestly I think Ao is a terrible idea. He just exists to give someone to dictate new rules to the gods, which they needed to change editions, but in a world-building sense I don't think he is really needed. The universe itself or reality itself can fulfill the same function. But, I think you are mistaken in the possibility of war created by having Demons and Devils and Evil Gods. Firstly, those wars can already happen between beings of equal power, see Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt. They are in a three-way struggle. So, we don't need the Demons and Devils to be weaker than the gods for those wars to happen, and in fact, I'd say that those wars are more interesting if the opposing sides are more balanced, than if the Demon Lords or Archdevils need to skulk around because the moment the god actually takes the field they are boned.Secondly, wars for increasing power don't need for one side to be weaker than the other. It could be that killing a god and subverting their power doesn't ascend a demon lord to a new tier of power, but it does increase their power. Some gods are stronger than others after all. It also gives them new territory. Perhaps access to relics or power sources previously unavailable to them. The spoils of war then can become a plot point, instead of the spoils being "I'm a god now" Because Thirdly, we are back at the issue I brought up originally. Why do we fear Orcus becoming a god of Undeath when we have a God of Undeath? What does this do that is not currently capable of being done? If we have evil gods, then having evil beings ascending to Godhood isn't as much of a threat. Unless they are breaking the rules of gods. See, there was a story I encountered some time ago, that laid this out in a good manner. I don't remember exactly what it was, but the idea was pretty simple. The Gods had warred and caused untold destruction, so the Gods made a deal, a pact, that said they couldn't directly interefere with each other, or directly interfere with the world. There were good and evil gods, and they all made this agreement. When a big bad evil guy was trying to attain godhood it was explained that this was a problem, not because he would be an evil god, but because he was not subject to the Pact. He could act uncontested in the world, and if the gods intervened directly to stop him... the pact was broken and the god's war might continue. In this case, having both works, but then you also lose the ability for the gods of good and evil to fight, which DnD allows them to do all the time.I disagree. In fact, your system there could just as easily work without ranks. All that does is make it possible to be a Demon Lord and have 500 PP. Because, again, this divide reduces the possible stories. If a Demi-God is more powerful than an Archdevil, then a full god can't be challenged by an Archdevil. Look at these rankingsInitiate -> Where the antagonist is atNovice Temporals1st Temporals 2nd Temporals3rd Temporals4the TemporalsNovice Celestials -> The weakest of true gods1st Celestials2nd Celestials3rd Celestials -> A more likely place for a well-known god who would make the most story sense to targetConsidering the scaling of the points is roughly 700 pts per tier (probably spikes at novice) You are looking at the story of, say, Orcus challenging the Raven Queen or Kelemvor as a being a fight with one side being potentially 30 times more powerful than the other. You might as well be sending a 5th level cleric to fight a Pitfiend, solo. Your example of play is great, Immortals utilizing their power to position and fight each other in time and space is a wonderful concept that I support. But, what I don't see the value in saying is that Orcus, Demogorgon and the others have to stay below that 500 PP limit, while the gods like Bane and Vecna are working with close to 60,000 PP (rough math based on educated guesses) You keep saying that we lose these great RP opportunities by making the Demon Lords and Archdevils more powerful... but I just fully disagree. We have already lost good RP opportunities, and with a bit tweaking from "personal power and status" to "artifacts and territory" then we don't lose the wars that you want, and they can actually be wars that have some hope of being won, instead of contrived occurrences where the gods are artificially weakened to the point where they can be threatened. I also think that this set up opens up the Primal Power Source and Druidic sects, rather than just having nature be ruled by gods just like civilization is. I'd rather the term "god" be less about power and more about, well, what they are about.</blockquote>

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