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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8402533" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>And you could do the exact same as a Warlock of a Demon Lord opposed to those undead and demons. Again, just because the PC is going to focus on killing demons and undead doesn't mean that the goal of Nerull isn't Omnicide. </p><p></p><p>Nerull's goal is the cessation of all life. That is not something that you can say is a good thing. Not with how DnD defines Good.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I know fiends don't get celestial pact warlocks or Divine Soul Sorcerers. Evil Gods would though, so in actuality that would mean that we are looking at:</p><p></p><p>Warlocks and Sorcerers and Clerics and Paladins vs Warlocks and Sorcerers.</p><p></p><p>We have the proof of Hell Knights, Paladins that serve the Hells though, so it is actually:</p><p></p><p>Warlocks and sorcerers and Clerics and Paladins vs Warlocks and Sorcerers and Paladins</p><p></p><p>It isn't official material, but we do have the "<a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/frog-god-games/disciple-of-orcus-cleric-archetype/" target="_blank">Disciple of Orcus</a>" for Pathfinder, which is a cleric. According to the stub at the bottom, it was published based on notes from Gygax. These notes probably were directly having clerics for demons and devils, since he included such in his writings all the time, according to what I could find.</p><p></p><p>There is also a bit from the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook, from TSR, that has priests (ie clerics) of Orcus. </p><p></p><p>First Edition had <a href="https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orcolla" target="_blank">Orcolla</a>, a Duergar cleric of Orcus. Looks like he came from the Mines of Bloodstone adventure from TSR. </p><p></p><p>I also note that on this <a href="https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49547" target="_blank">forum</a>, the question came up and someone points out that on pg 105 of the first printing of DDG (Deities and Demigods) that the following beings "should be treated as lesser gods": <strong>Demogorgon</strong>, <strong>Juiblex</strong>, <strong>Orcus</strong>, <strong>Yeenoghu</strong>, <strong>Asmodeus</strong>, <strong>Baalzebul</strong>, <strong>Dispater</strong>, <strong>Geryon</strong>, Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, Ssendam, Ygorl, Cryonax, Imix, Ogremoch, Olhydra and Yan-C-Bin.</p><p></p><p>And THIS <a href="https://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?t=63554" target="_blank">forum </a>gives us some great sources specifically quoting:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, that covers some 2e TSR stuff, and some 3.X WoTC materials. And from 5e I can point to the Cult Fanatic having cleric spells, and the leader of a cult to Orcus, having clerical spells, very likely means they are meant to be read as a cleric. </p><p></p><p>So, I don't think saying that "Fiends don't get clerics in base lore.... ever." is accurate. </p><p></p><p>And I don't care about the Good vs Evil Evil vs Evil, because that has nothing to do with the discussion. Nor did I say that any Archfiends currently serve Gods. But, if we are supposed to take weaker fiends serving evil gods, then Archfiends (who are still considered weaker) serving them makes sense as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8402533, member: 6801228"] And you could do the exact same as a Warlock of a Demon Lord opposed to those undead and demons. Again, just because the PC is going to focus on killing demons and undead doesn't mean that the goal of Nerull isn't Omnicide. Nerull's goal is the cessation of all life. That is not something that you can say is a good thing. Not with how DnD defines Good. I know fiends don't get celestial pact warlocks or Divine Soul Sorcerers. Evil Gods would though, so in actuality that would mean that we are looking at: Warlocks and Sorcerers and Clerics and Paladins vs Warlocks and Sorcerers. We have the proof of Hell Knights, Paladins that serve the Hells though, so it is actually: Warlocks and sorcerers and Clerics and Paladins vs Warlocks and Sorcerers and Paladins It isn't official material, but we do have the "[URL='https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/frog-god-games/disciple-of-orcus-cleric-archetype/']Disciple of Orcus[/URL]" for Pathfinder, which is a cleric. According to the stub at the bottom, it was published based on notes from Gygax. These notes probably were directly having clerics for demons and devils, since he included such in his writings all the time, according to what I could find. There is also a bit from the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook, from TSR, that has priests (ie clerics) of Orcus. First Edition had [URL='https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orcolla']Orcolla[/URL], a Duergar cleric of Orcus. Looks like he came from the Mines of Bloodstone adventure from TSR. I also note that on this [URL='https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49547']forum[/URL], the question came up and someone points out that on pg 105 of the first printing of DDG (Deities and Demigods) that the following beings "should be treated as lesser gods": [B]Demogorgon[/B], [B]Juiblex[/B], [B]Orcus[/B], [B]Yeenoghu[/B], [B]Asmodeus[/B], [B]Baalzebul[/B], [B]Dispater[/B], [B]Geryon[/B], Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, Ssendam, Ygorl, Cryonax, Imix, Ogremoch, Olhydra and Yan-C-Bin. And THIS [URL='https://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?t=63554']forum [/URL]gives us some great sources specifically quoting: So, that covers some 2e TSR stuff, and some 3.X WoTC materials. And from 5e I can point to the Cult Fanatic having cleric spells, and the leader of a cult to Orcus, having clerical spells, very likely means they are meant to be read as a cleric. So, I don't think saying that "Fiends don't get clerics in base lore.... ever." is accurate. And I don't care about the Good vs Evil Evil vs Evil, because that has nothing to do with the discussion. Nor did I say that any Archfiends currently serve Gods. But, if we are supposed to take weaker fiends serving evil gods, then Archfiends (who are still considered weaker) serving them makes sense as well. [/QUOTE]
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