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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8402769" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Then you can run a true neutral warlock of Orcus. Again, what's your point here? Nerull is such a capital E Evil that you have to stretch to get Neutral, and you can easily do the same for any being in existence. His plans are MORE extreme than Orcus's. Nerull wants the destruction of all life.So, they used to have clerics. Therefore "Fiends don't get clerics in base lore.... ever." is flat out wrong. They got them until 4e at least. Proven by the books I quoted. Partially because until mid-3.X Warlocks didn't even exist.And if fiends cannot create paladins, because they are paladins of causes, then Gods can't really create Paladins either. If the point is that the paladin willingly swears an oath, because they have chosen devotion to a cause, then there is nothing that the Gods can do to bring that about that the Nine Hells can't. Sure, the gods can be more open, but that does not necessarily give rise to the levels of devotion needed for a paladin. Meanwhile, the forces of Hell are if nothing else, very manipulative, and taking an individual and secretly twisting them in isolation is what they exist to do. But being rare also has nothing to do with the point. Since they can exist, an evil paladin could be part of the fight against the party. So, at the end of the day, if we look to the time period when many of these Demon Lords and Archdevils were created, them being equivalent for the most part to the gods... is exactly what was intended. Sure, they didn't have cavaliers and paladins, but they did have clerics and secret temples. So, we really are losing nothing by going back towards that model that I can find.</blockquote>

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