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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8404047" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I feel that you are straddling editions here.</p><p></p><p>In classic D&D (ie OD&D, early AD&D), and in 4e, there is no difference in power between gods and demon princes/archdevils. And both have clerics.</p><p></p><p>Lolth is a demon queen (see eg module D3, and the original FF) who is also a god of the Drow, with plenty of clerics. In DDG she is repurposed as a Lesser God, but as you noted upthread, and as I have noted upthread, in DDG <em>all</em> the demon princes and archdevils were repurposes in this way. Here is the opening of the Lolth entry in DDG (revised version (ie no Elric or Cthulhu), p 92):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best know example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth.</p><p></p><p>Module T1 The Village of Hommlet has as its final villain Lareth the Beautiful, a 5th level clric of "the Demoness Lolth". And (contra [USER=6855114]@Helldritch[/USER]) Lareth has a full suite of spells, not just 1st and 2nd level ones.</p><p></p><p>I don't have as much familiarity with a range of 2nd ed AD&D materials, but to me it doesn't seem to wildly depart from earlier AD&D: the module Dead Gods has a priest of Orcus, the half-ogre Quah-Nomag (who gets a full suite of spells up to 5th level). I'm not the biggest fan of Planescape, but it is evidence of what was accepted in 2nd ed AD&D.</p><p></p><p>Then in 4e, Demogorgon (a demon prince) is the same level as Torog (an evil god): both are 34th. Lolth and Vecna (two evils gods, in 4e) are both 35th. Imix, a Prince of Elemental Evil, is 32nd. There is no wild disparity of power here.</p><p></p><p>In DDG Asmodeus is said to be a Lesser God with no "on his own plane" limitation.</p><p></p><p>In core 4e, Bane is (perhaps) a mortal who ascended:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Bane was either a mortal hero or a demigod who slew Tuern, the previous (and less disciplined) god of war . . . (The Plane Above, p 51)</p><p></p><p>I know that Dragon 372 says something a bit different, but that is consistent with the general approach in 4e of presenting its mythology in multiple overlapping but non-definitive versions.</p><p></p><p>As has already been posted, this isn't accurate. In AD&D there are clerics of fiends, as I've shown above. In 4e there are clerics of devils but not of demons, reflecting the particular cosmology of that setting. There is also at least one "paladin" of Asmodeus, namely, the Duergar Murkelmor (in module H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth).</p><p></p><p>But Yeenoghu, Demogorgon, Orcus et al all have cultist followers who are functionally clerics and serve the same role in the fiction as the Gygax-era anti-clerics and evil high priests (eg the Deathpriest of Orcus in the MM; the Berserker Prelate of Demogorgon in the MM2; Zaiden, Yeenoghu's cult leader, in Dragon 364; in H2, Maldrick Scarmaker is statted as a warlock, although there is no provision for a PC warlock to be a warlock of a demon lord).</p><p></p><p>I don't agree, based on the examples I've given in the previous paragraph.</p><p></p><p>This isn't accurate, as per the earlier parts of this post.</p><p></p><p>This isn't accurate either. In AD&D, as soon as the concept of a "god" came to matter (ie in DDG), the archdevils and demon princes were declared to be gods.</p><p></p><p>There are no canonical anti-paladins in 1st ed AD&D (unless you count Death Knights, whom the Fiend Folio (p 23) conjectures are created by Demogorgon), and I don't know of them in 2nd ed AD&D either. 4e D&D has a discussion of paladins of evil gods in its DMG (p 163).</p><p></p><p>There is a fan-authored anti-paladin in Dragon 39, but it is not especially connected to Demogorgon.</p><p></p><p>While I can see your rules argument in 3E terms, I agree with [USER=23751]@Maxperson[/USER] and [USER=6801228]@Chaosmancer[/USER] that this is not really consistent with the established fiction for Nerull.</p><p></p><p>Agreed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8404047, member: 42582"] I feel that you are straddling editions here. In classic D&D (ie OD&D, early AD&D), and in 4e, there is no difference in power between gods and demon princes/archdevils. And both have clerics. Lolth is a demon queen (see eg module D3, and the original FF) who is also a god of the Drow, with plenty of clerics. In DDG she is repurposed as a Lesser God, but as you noted upthread, and as I have noted upthread, in DDG [i]all[/i] the demon princes and archdevils were repurposes in this way. Here is the opening of the Lolth entry in DDG (revised version (ie no Elric or Cthulhu), p 92): [indent]The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best know example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth.[/indent] Module T1 The Village of Hommlet has as its final villain Lareth the Beautiful, a 5th level clric of "the Demoness Lolth". And (contra [USER=6855114]@Helldritch[/USER]) Lareth has a full suite of spells, not just 1st and 2nd level ones. I don't have as much familiarity with a range of 2nd ed AD&D materials, but to me it doesn't seem to wildly depart from earlier AD&D: the module Dead Gods has a priest of Orcus, the half-ogre Quah-Nomag (who gets a full suite of spells up to 5th level). I'm not the biggest fan of Planescape, but it is evidence of what was accepted in 2nd ed AD&D. Then in 4e, Demogorgon (a demon prince) is the same level as Torog (an evil god): both are 34th. Lolth and Vecna (two evils gods, in 4e) are both 35th. Imix, a Prince of Elemental Evil, is 32nd. There is no wild disparity of power here. In DDG Asmodeus is said to be a Lesser God with no "on his own plane" limitation. In core 4e, Bane is (perhaps) a mortal who ascended: [indent]Bane was either a mortal hero or a demigod who slew Tuern, the previous (and less disciplined) god of war . . . (The Plane Above, p 51)[/indent] I know that Dragon 372 says something a bit different, but that is consistent with the general approach in 4e of presenting its mythology in multiple overlapping but non-definitive versions. As has already been posted, this isn't accurate. In AD&D there are clerics of fiends, as I've shown above. In 4e there are clerics of devils but not of demons, reflecting the particular cosmology of that setting. There is also at least one "paladin" of Asmodeus, namely, the Duergar Murkelmor (in module H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth). But Yeenoghu, Demogorgon, Orcus et al all have cultist followers who are functionally clerics and serve the same role in the fiction as the Gygax-era anti-clerics and evil high priests (eg the Deathpriest of Orcus in the MM; the Berserker Prelate of Demogorgon in the MM2; Zaiden, Yeenoghu's cult leader, in Dragon 364; in H2, Maldrick Scarmaker is statted as a warlock, although there is no provision for a PC warlock to be a warlock of a demon lord). I don't agree, based on the examples I've given in the previous paragraph. This isn't accurate, as per the earlier parts of this post. This isn't accurate either. In AD&D, as soon as the concept of a "god" came to matter (ie in DDG), the archdevils and demon princes were declared to be gods. There are no canonical anti-paladins in 1st ed AD&D (unless you count Death Knights, whom the Fiend Folio (p 23) conjectures are created by Demogorgon), and I don't know of them in 2nd ed AD&D either. 4e D&D has a discussion of paladins of evil gods in its DMG (p 163). There is a fan-authored anti-paladin in Dragon 39, but it is not especially connected to Demogorgon. While I can see your rules argument in 3E terms, I agree with [USER=23751]@Maxperson[/USER] and [USER=6801228]@Chaosmancer[/USER] that this is not really consistent with the established fiction for Nerull. Agreed. [/QUOTE]
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