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The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods
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<blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8406398" data-attributes="member: 6915329"><p>I meant more that there aren't any canon reasons why gods and arch-things aren't after each other's jobs all the time. But anyway. I'm not 100% convinced there's any real purpose for <em>any </em>gods (or, any gods that are verifiable by mortals, at least). This thread has encouraged me to come up with no-gods universe. Which will get put with all of the other settings I've come up with that I will probably never use.</p><p></p><p>Evil gods exist in real-world mythology, even if purely evil gods are rare. For example, I'm no expert on Finnish legends, but their Loviatar seems to be about as evil than her Faerun counterpart--but a lot <a href="https://finnish-folklore.fandom.com/wiki/Loviatar" target="_blank">cooler</a>, judging by the poem written. So while there's no real reason to have evil gods, I don't think that there's a reason to say that one shouldn't include them--or that they are interchangeable with arch-fiends.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure the Blood War is never going to actually end (unless there was some adventure or sourcebook that said otherwise, in which case: that's stupid; the Blood War is never going to end).</p><p></p><p>But anyway, that has nothing to do with the war between Maglubiyet and Gruumsh, who are fighting because... I dunno. Probably for the same reason the actual Blood War exists--to explain why these two different people haven't teamed up and taken over the world yet.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The 2e Planescale MC says that that night hags are always willing to trade for knowledge and magic, and for certain favors: "lower planar powers ... agree to not enter night hag territories" and "liches destroy creatures who refuse to trade with hags" in exchange for larvae." I imagine there's plenty of other things that can be traded as well--services, slaves, and so forth.</p><p></p><p>Also, it doesn't seem like night hags have to search all that hard for larva. They're listed as having the frequency <em>Common</em> and the organization <em>Masses</em>, and the flavor text for the entry had some adventurer encounter a night hag with a herd of several thousand larvae. (The 2e entries for both night hags and larva have tons of plot hooks. I miss the 2e monster writeups.)</p><p></p><p>We also don't know the exchange rate. For all we know, a <em>potion of healing </em>might be worth one larva. Or a dozen larvae. Healing might be hard to come by in the lower planes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The 2e book suggests that larvae only show up on the Gray Waste. Since the only major fiends that live there are the night hags, neither demons nor devils can gather larvae on their own without going to another plane and invading night hag territory. I can't find info on them for 3e (it probably exists; I just can't find it), a small entry I found online for 4e shunts "soul-larvae" to the Shadowfell (which I'm guessing replaced Hades as the place for evil souls to go), and their 5e statblock is missing... everything useful or interesting about them. Sigh.</p><p></p><p>The 2e MC says that larvae are the only way to make imps and quasits (and that imps and quasits can then be turned into higher-ranking fiends). But 5e says that <em>lemures</em> can be turned into imps, and lemures don't start as larvae; they're also created directly out of souls. I'm guessing maybe manes can be turned into quasits? So larvae are back to being food (4e apparently gave benefits to creatures who ate a larva, because nothing's just <em>food </em>anymore), a fuel source, and a currency.</p><p></p><p>So, back to souls. Have you read or watched Good Omens? Specifically, the bit at the beginning of the story (but not the <em>very </em>beginning), where the demons Crowley, Hastur, and Ligur are recounting the Deeds of the Day. It's a 30+ year old book, and this particular scene is more about establishing character than plot, so I'm too lazy to spoiler it. Hastur and Ligur have spent a lot of time tempting two people, thus securing those two souls for Hell. <em>Crowley</em> tied up all the mobile networks in central London for half an hour during lunchtime, thus ensuring that millions of people became frustrated, meaning a lot of those people will take out their anger on others, who will take out <em>their </em>anger on still more people--meaning millions of people got a little bit more evil and, therefore, a little bit closer to Hell.</p><p></p><p>So that's the problem with signing souls. If you need a lot of souls (one of the plot hooks in the 2e MC was that the baatezu were making a doomsday device and needed <em>millions</em> of larvae to power it), then individual contracts aren't going to cut it. Getting individuals to sign away their souls is, as Crowley put it, craftsmanship, but this is what I mean by it's icing: it's honestly not enough for any major purposes. It ensures that the soul goes directly to the signer. But what's <em>one </em>soul? Well, in D&D, that soul would be probably start out as a higher-ranked fiend, which is definitely useful for a variety of reasons--but it won't be useful for food, fuel, or currency.</p><p></p><p>This is why there are cults, because it's extremely likely that the cultist's soul goes directly to the fiend it worshiped. But it's not totally guaranteed that this will happen, because redemption <em>is </em>a thing--and in at least some earlier editions, there was the <em>atonement </em>spell, which I imagine could be used to cleanse a soul.</p><p></p><p>Now, it's possible that an arch-fiend would also gain power from being worshiped--I think someone else posted a quote that suggests Asmodeus does--but I'd say that indicates that the arch-fiend in question is either actually on the cusp of godhood or <em>anything </em>can gain power from being worshiped. D&D only <em>barely </em>touches that latter concept, probably because it would be difficult or at least page-consuming to come up with actual rules for it.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps instead of being a duality, the difference between gods and arch-things is more of a continuum. The more god-like you are, the more power you gain from worship and the more you can create and control, and the more arch-thing you are, the less dependent you are on mortals (going with the idea that gods die without worship but arch-things don't) and the more you can <em>interact </em>with the Material World without damaging or altering it. There's benefits to both sides.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That would be cool. I do wish that things like this were given more time in D&D. At the very least, a fiend should be able to split a soul into two (perhaps using eldritch machinery, because eldritch machinery is always fun), even if the soul was originally a single thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The Material Plane is finite. Or rather, even if space is infinite, each world is a finite area, and outside of <em>really </em>long-range teleportation and Spelljammers each world is isolated. The Hells and the Abyss have truly infinite living area. Demons are destructive, but they're also like a cancer: they destroy by growing and choking out all the healthy life--but when the life is gone, that means that the cancer is also destroyed (although with demons, it's because they would turn on each other if there were no non-demons to play with). Demons will eventually truly destroy a planet and take themselves with it. Now, for the average demon, this is no biggie. They can't think <em>that </em>long-term. But the demon lords are smart enough to know better. They know how to pace themselves. They're not going to send entire armies through to the Material just for funsies.</p><p></p><p>Also, doing so would attract unwanted attention from other fiends (who might interfere, if only to keep the invaders from becoming too powerful), good celestials (who need to protect mortals), and the gods (who want their worshipers unharmed), as well as mortal heroes.</p><p></p><p>Edit:</p><p></p><p></p><p>D&D is full of redundancies. Ogres are redundant with hill giants and verbeegs, which I can't believe they brought back. Orcs are redundant with goblins who are redundant with kobolds who are redundant with xvarts. Orogs and ogrillons are redundant with each other. Dragons are redundant with each other. Giants are redundant with each other. Pixies are redundant with sprites. </p><p></p><p>D&D is full of redundancies. It's a messy, complex system. That's part of its charm.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Faolyn, post: 8406398, member: 6915329"] I meant more that there aren't any canon reasons why gods and arch-things aren't after each other's jobs all the time. But anyway. I'm not 100% convinced there's any real purpose for [I]any [/I]gods (or, any gods that are verifiable by mortals, at least). This thread has encouraged me to come up with no-gods universe. Which will get put with all of the other settings I've come up with that I will probably never use. Evil gods exist in real-world mythology, even if purely evil gods are rare. For example, I'm no expert on Finnish legends, but their Loviatar seems to be about as evil than her Faerun counterpart--but a lot [URL='https://finnish-folklore.fandom.com/wiki/Loviatar']cooler[/URL], judging by the poem written. So while there's no real reason to have evil gods, I don't think that there's a reason to say that one shouldn't include them--or that they are interchangeable with arch-fiends. I'm pretty sure the Blood War is never going to actually end (unless there was some adventure or sourcebook that said otherwise, in which case: that's stupid; the Blood War is never going to end). But anyway, that has nothing to do with the war between Maglubiyet and Gruumsh, who are fighting because... I dunno. Probably for the same reason the actual Blood War exists--to explain why these two different people haven't teamed up and taken over the world yet. The 2e Planescale MC says that that night hags are always willing to trade for knowledge and magic, and for certain favors: "lower planar powers ... agree to not enter night hag territories" and "liches destroy creatures who refuse to trade with hags" in exchange for larvae." I imagine there's plenty of other things that can be traded as well--services, slaves, and so forth. Also, it doesn't seem like night hags have to search all that hard for larva. They're listed as having the frequency [I]Common[/I] and the organization [I]Masses[/I], and the flavor text for the entry had some adventurer encounter a night hag with a herd of several thousand larvae. (The 2e entries for both night hags and larva have tons of plot hooks. I miss the 2e monster writeups.) We also don't know the exchange rate. For all we know, a [I]potion of healing [/I]might be worth one larva. Or a dozen larvae. Healing might be hard to come by in the lower planes. The 2e book suggests that larvae only show up on the Gray Waste. Since the only major fiends that live there are the night hags, neither demons nor devils can gather larvae on their own without going to another plane and invading night hag territory. I can't find info on them for 3e (it probably exists; I just can't find it), a small entry I found online for 4e shunts "soul-larvae" to the Shadowfell (which I'm guessing replaced Hades as the place for evil souls to go), and their 5e statblock is missing... everything useful or interesting about them. Sigh. The 2e MC says that larvae are the only way to make imps and quasits (and that imps and quasits can then be turned into higher-ranking fiends). But 5e says that [I]lemures[/I] can be turned into imps, and lemures don't start as larvae; they're also created directly out of souls. I'm guessing maybe manes can be turned into quasits? So larvae are back to being food (4e apparently gave benefits to creatures who ate a larva, because nothing's just [I]food [/I]anymore), a fuel source, and a currency. So, back to souls. Have you read or watched Good Omens? Specifically, the bit at the beginning of the story (but not the [I]very [/I]beginning), where the demons Crowley, Hastur, and Ligur are recounting the Deeds of the Day. It's a 30+ year old book, and this particular scene is more about establishing character than plot, so I'm too lazy to spoiler it. Hastur and Ligur have spent a lot of time tempting two people, thus securing those two souls for Hell. [I]Crowley[/I] tied up all the mobile networks in central London for half an hour during lunchtime, thus ensuring that millions of people became frustrated, meaning a lot of those people will take out their anger on others, who will take out [I]their [/I]anger on still more people--meaning millions of people got a little bit more evil and, therefore, a little bit closer to Hell. So that's the problem with signing souls. If you need a lot of souls (one of the plot hooks in the 2e MC was that the baatezu were making a doomsday device and needed [I]millions[/I] of larvae to power it), then individual contracts aren't going to cut it. Getting individuals to sign away their souls is, as Crowley put it, craftsmanship, but this is what I mean by it's icing: it's honestly not enough for any major purposes. It ensures that the soul goes directly to the signer. But what's [I]one [/I]soul? Well, in D&D, that soul would be probably start out as a higher-ranked fiend, which is definitely useful for a variety of reasons--but it won't be useful for food, fuel, or currency. This is why there are cults, because it's extremely likely that the cultist's soul goes directly to the fiend it worshiped. But it's not totally guaranteed that this will happen, because redemption [I]is [/I]a thing--and in at least some earlier editions, there was the [I]atonement [/I]spell, which I imagine could be used to cleanse a soul. Now, it's possible that an arch-fiend would also gain power from being worshiped--I think someone else posted a quote that suggests Asmodeus does--but I'd say that indicates that the arch-fiend in question is either actually on the cusp of godhood or [I]anything [/I]can gain power from being worshiped. D&D only [I]barely [/I]touches that latter concept, probably because it would be difficult or at least page-consuming to come up with actual rules for it. Perhaps instead of being a duality, the difference between gods and arch-things is more of a continuum. The more god-like you are, the more power you gain from worship and the more you can create and control, and the more arch-thing you are, the less dependent you are on mortals (going with the idea that gods die without worship but arch-things don't) and the more you can [I]interact [/I]with the Material World without damaging or altering it. There's benefits to both sides. That would be cool. I do wish that things like this were given more time in D&D. At the very least, a fiend should be able to split a soul into two (perhaps using eldritch machinery, because eldritch machinery is always fun), even if the soul was originally a single thing. The Material Plane is finite. Or rather, even if space is infinite, each world is a finite area, and outside of [I]really [/I]long-range teleportation and Spelljammers each world is isolated. The Hells and the Abyss have truly infinite living area. Demons are destructive, but they're also like a cancer: they destroy by growing and choking out all the healthy life--but when the life is gone, that means that the cancer is also destroyed (although with demons, it's because they would turn on each other if there were no non-demons to play with). Demons will eventually truly destroy a planet and take themselves with it. Now, for the average demon, this is no biggie. They can't think [I]that [/I]long-term. But the demon lords are smart enough to know better. They know how to pace themselves. They're not going to send entire armies through to the Material just for funsies. Also, doing so would attract unwanted attention from other fiends (who might interfere, if only to keep the invaders from becoming too powerful), good celestials (who need to protect mortals), and the gods (who want their worshipers unharmed), as well as mortal heroes. Edit: D&D is full of redundancies. Ogres are redundant with hill giants and verbeegs, which I can't believe they brought back. Orcs are redundant with goblins who are redundant with kobolds who are redundant with xvarts. Orogs and ogrillons are redundant with each other. Dragons are redundant with each other. Giants are redundant with each other. Pixies are redundant with sprites. D&D is full of redundancies. It's a messy, complex system. That's part of its charm. [/QUOTE]
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