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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8406640" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I posted classic D&D clerics of Lolth (a Demon Queen as per D3 and FF - when republished in DDG she was relabelled as a lesser god, along with all the other archdevils and demon lords).</p><p></p><p>I posted references to devil worshippers, with priest and clerics, in WoG and the MM (Sahuagin) and in Dragon 91 - that last one coming from Ed Greenwood, and therefore describing his conception of the Forgotten Realms c 1984.</p><p></p><p>I posted references to clerics of Demogorgon (in DDG). I posted 2nd ed AD&D clerics of Orcus and of Asmodeus.</p><p></p><p>I posted material from 3E - the BoVD and the DDG - that expressly contemplates clerics of archdevils and demon lords.</p><p></p><p>I posted references to 4e cultists of Orcus, Demorgoron and Yeenoghu who look just like clerics.</p><p></p><p>You and [USER=6855114]@Helldritch[/USER] seem to be either ignorant of, or deliberately ignoring, all this material in order to assert a uniformity that is simply not there in the actual published material.</p><p></p><p>I don't understand what "norm" you are referring to. Or what "rule" these are exceptions to.</p><p></p><p>I found the examples I've posted in a few minutes of looking through my shelves for stuff that I remembered. Lareth the Beautiful, for instance, is one of the most famous NPCs in the history of D&D; and the Horned Society and its Hierarchs is hardly an obscure Greyhawk reference. Sahuagin, the "devil worshippers" in the MM with their clerics who are in no way confined to low-level spells are also not obscure.</p><p></p><p>These published examples are not rare. They are a dime-a-dozen! You may not have followed the lead of the published material in your own play, but that doesn't establish any facts about the material itself.</p><p></p><p>I'm also having trouble following your attitude towards the relationship between what is published and how the game is played. Upthread you were contrasting D&D with some unnamed games, on the basis that in D&D "not everything is set in stone". But now you're describing D&D as "do as I say, not as I do". I don't exactly what you think it is is being said - given how typical these clerics/priests of demons and devils are in the published material - but I also don't understand why you now seem to be lauding conformity to some notional norm or rule rather than things not being set in stone.</p><p></p><p>From my point of view, the bottom line is that the D&D materials, for most of the life of the game, have been replete with clerics who worship devils and demons, and have access to a full suite of spells. Some of the earliest published examples are Lolth clerics (Lareth, the many Drow in G3, D1, D2 and D3) but there are many others and they are found across editions.</p><p></p><p>Does anyone know whether T1-4 has clerics of Zuggtmoy? I don't have a copy; but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8406640, member: 42582"] I posted classic D&D clerics of Lolth (a Demon Queen as per D3 and FF - when republished in DDG she was relabelled as a lesser god, along with all the other archdevils and demon lords). I posted references to devil worshippers, with priest and clerics, in WoG and the MM (Sahuagin) and in Dragon 91 - that last one coming from Ed Greenwood, and therefore describing his conception of the Forgotten Realms c 1984. I posted references to clerics of Demogorgon (in DDG). I posted 2nd ed AD&D clerics of Orcus and of Asmodeus. I posted material from 3E - the BoVD and the DDG - that expressly contemplates clerics of archdevils and demon lords. I posted references to 4e cultists of Orcus, Demorgoron and Yeenoghu who look just like clerics. You and [USER=6855114]@Helldritch[/USER] seem to be either ignorant of, or deliberately ignoring, all this material in order to assert a uniformity that is simply not there in the actual published material. I don't understand what "norm" you are referring to. Or what "rule" these are exceptions to. I found the examples I've posted in a few minutes of looking through my shelves for stuff that I remembered. Lareth the Beautiful, for instance, is one of the most famous NPCs in the history of D&D; and the Horned Society and its Hierarchs is hardly an obscure Greyhawk reference. Sahuagin, the "devil worshippers" in the MM with their clerics who are in no way confined to low-level spells are also not obscure. These published examples are not rare. They are a dime-a-dozen! You may not have followed the lead of the published material in your own play, but that doesn't establish any facts about the material itself. I'm also having trouble following your attitude towards the relationship between what is published and how the game is played. Upthread you were contrasting D&D with some unnamed games, on the basis that in D&D "not everything is set in stone". But now you're describing D&D as "do as I say, not as I do". I don't exactly what you think it is is being said - given how typical these clerics/priests of demons and devils are in the published material - but I also don't understand why you now seem to be lauding conformity to some notional norm or rule rather than things not being set in stone. From my point of view, the bottom line is that the D&D materials, for most of the life of the game, have been replete with clerics who worship devils and demons, and have access to a full suite of spells. Some of the earliest published examples are Lolth clerics (Lareth, the many Drow in G3, D1, D2 and D3) but there are many others and they are found across editions. Does anyone know whether T1-4 has clerics of Zuggtmoy? I don't have a copy; but I wouldn't be surprised if it does. [/QUOTE]
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